I’ve been informed a few times that people in the Stanton sect are saying things about me behind my back. Surprise! This is not something new or unexpected. It is the M.O. of any sect once they sense they are losing control of the narrative—attack their critics.
They used to have a monopoly on any conversation about themselves—there was no one responding or shedding any Biblical light on them, because they just stayed in the shadows and flew under the radar of the mainstream forums for communication. But that is no longer true, and rather than respond directly in a loving manner, brother to brother, they’d rather take potshots and troll honest dissenters. Whatever.
In all things, love. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. I have no time or bandwidth to deal with people who are petty and perhaps dishonest as to post anonymously here for the purpose of trolling, or who bash me publicly in forums where I can’t respond. I know whom I stand and fall before, and it certainly isn’t any human.
If, and only if, you have direct knowledge of gossip and slander said about me or this blog in attempt to discredit its message, I invite you to post it in the comments here. In the meantime, I’ll keep speaking the truth in love—punctuated by periods of time where I have to focus on my work, family, and foster care ministry.
God bless,
Kevin
P.s. – Thanks to your continued readership, and those who have exited the sect and now help keep the conversation going here when I’m away from the computer. This is truly a community, not a pulpit; thank you for your service to the cause of truth.
“Truth need not be afraid of a lie.”
Very good Kevin. With out a shadow of a doubt Merie’s cult has to be world leaders in gossiping, slander, murmuring and a busy body people. That was clear as day in the Portland congregation. These people have not the courage to face those who have there number period. Still have my 200+ unanswered questions that the two paid preachers dare not answer. 360-721-2352. I like that bring ‘em on.
Stanton is doomed. They can't stand the scrutiny of free inquiry, which every movement of truth in history was unafraid of. Can you imagine Christ telling his followers not to tell the world what he taught them, and trying to hide off in private from the world? Not really!! Rather, he told them to tell the truth to the entire world and not to hide their lights under a bushel.
Stanton teaches to hide their lessons, CD's, talks, and everything that goes on from anyone who isn't a member.
As you said, Kevin, "Truth need not be afraid of a lie".
Stanton glories in it's secrecy. And while it's busy hiding it's message from everyone, it's stagnating, and growing stale, and static, and is headed for spiritual death. You simply cannot grow with Stanton's absurd logic and gross hypocrisy. You can't mandate totalitarian decrees upon people, try to hide your own wrongdoings, silence the person those decrees were imposed upon who rightly and indignantly objects, and go about your merry way as if nothing has happened.
God is very angry with Stanton. He sees what some of their teachers are up to. They can hide what they have done from their congregations for a time, but a day of reckoning is coming. The teachers are going to have to answer for their unconscionable oppression. When their congregations learn of what they have done, justice will run it's course.
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Ecclesiastes 8:11
It's sad too, because Stanton has done so much good, but they refuse to correct ANY of their wrongs and insist that others admit to being 100% wrong, and that they must concur that Stanton is 100% right. Totally nonsense thinking that no sane human ever concurs with. It was the same thinking that the Pope demanded of Martin Luther, and Luther rejected that decree. It's interesting that many in the Church today who are totalitarian authoritarians have their roots in the Catholic church and are imitating the same mistakes of the Pope. I can think of three off the top of my head.
It's really too bad our public schools never really taught kids about the horrors of communism and Nazism. If they had, the Democrat party would be dead, and our church wouldn't have the oppression it currently has. If only every kid had been forced to read five biographies of America's Founders, had read Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago", had read of Mao's brutal "Great Leap Forward", or "the Killing Fields" about Pol Pot's horrific oppression of Cambodia, they would understand how to avoid the spiritual equivalent of the oppressive episodes. But, as Lord Acton said, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Some of the most dangerous oppression in human history happens when people misconstrue the Bible and start passing unbiblical edicts.
"You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all the time."
ATTRIBUTION:
Attributed to ABRAHAM LINCOLN.—Alexander K. McClure, “Abe” Lincoln’s Yarns and Stories, p. 184 (1904).
In an effort to comment on a blog post that is not so difficult to scroll through I would like to present a question for discussion not exactly related to the blog post but easier to access.
Here goes: I have always been taught that contractions such as Jeez, darn, gosh and shoot etc. are wrong to say. To replace words like those many church members use the terms ‘oh my word’ or ‘oh gracious’ . What do ya’ll think about using the term ‘oh my word’ or ‘oh my’ or ‘oh gracious’?
I typically say Oh my goodness. Personally I'm ok with Geez, Gee Whiz, darn, shoot, etc. Language changes and so do we. These "wrong words" are yet another rule that Merie's church created. Fine if the rules 'are taught by your parents. Not fine when others are saying it's wrong or a sin. Nothing on that list qualifies as taking the Lord's name in vain, in my opinion. Ultimately it's up to you and how you want to sound and if you're a parent, what kind of leeway you want to give your kids.
Hopefully we can carry the comments from “the unwritten rules” to this article. Ryan my friend, you said Merie was withdrawn from for her stand against paid preachers? Reading something Kevin had wrote her ladies bible studies became a platform to recruit sympathizers to help overthrow what she saw as the sexist system of preacher/elder leadership. This eventually led her from being withdrawn from. Now what’s really interesting cult members who may be reading is she believed she had special insight from God and the Holy Spirit that would lead her to all truth. Wow a complete contradiction to what the cult teaches about all others who would make such a claim. They would say the are bogus or a phony isn’t that right GP. Your very own founder made the claim. She was special. Please at destroying marriages and families with her wrong understandings. False knowledge Weissalite’s is more dangerous than ignorance. Even the south’s paid preacher TC said once in a talk she wasn’t always right “you know” lol. TC says “you know” to much as DS does too. Anyways.
I have certainly found it interesting that Merie taught the whole "woman doesn't usurp a man" even as she did it herself. I seriously don't get how the leaders and preachers are so ignorant as to let that one slide. Personally I think they are way too invested to even attempt to consider leaving, allowing their consciences to get seared to the point they can keep teaching what they do and rebuking the sheep over their little rules. It's become such a mess many wouldn't even know where to begin to unravel it and get out, especially those at the top. It seems that some who are in and know about this blog and its "dangers" understand that the real danger is finding out the truth about Merie and how she manipulated God's word because she had a personal vendetta against mainstream COCs. Once you realize that so much of how she did things could not possibly be condoned by God, now there is a decision to make. And that, my friends, is where the rubber meets the road. Will you stay or will you go? A scary thought for many who have never known a different or better life. But life is full of changes. You'll never find Christ and his true love and mercy as long as you belong to Merie. All you'll find is her limitations and the limitations of the leaders of her sect.
Am I right it is all about money? They are scamming money from the flock while keeping them under their control and dumbed down. They want to do the same with the children.
Money isn't really the main issue in the SCOC. All of the congregations are usually transparent about the financials. Multiple people take turns counting the money after each collection taken up. Also the person who handles the money and makes the deposits reads the books publicly every 1-3 months and they also switch that person too from time to time. None of the preachers are ever paid and have their own jobs.
The only problems I know of is when people do request help they are choosy and picky about who receives help. Leaders usually get their needs filled whenever they ask and others needs are met with resistance and many questions before they get anything. What is taught in the SCOC is that the money is for the use of the needy saints and for the edification/administration purposes of the churches.
That being said though, there have been a few comments here and there on this blog that claim GP and maybe TC do take a salary. I don't know if this is true, but if it is people should ask if they do make money and ask what for or how much. If they do and get defensive or aren't transparent about it that's a red flag and people should be concerned.
After I started seeing different problems in this group of churches I started researching abusive/cult behaviors in churches everywhere(also how I found this blog). I've read probably thousands of stories of people's experiences on different websites just like this one. The bible does warn about filthy lucre for a reason as one of the biggest problems in churches has to do with money.
I personally lean towards not paying preachers/pastors and commend Stanton for doing it that way. Not that I think it's wrong to pay them, especially if the man is a good steward and is transparent about the finances. But more often than not it becomes a problem. When members start to leave or they stop tithing as much as the pastor would like, then he starts getting angry. Then the gospel starts to become about paying his bills and how to make more money and get people to give more. Many good men can get corrupted easily when faced with these problems. Most of the stories of abuse I've read from people on different sites stem from financial fraud. Number one though is simply abuse of power by the leaders to make themselves feel important. Either way though, if any in the SCOC suspects the evangelists are taking money they should question it.
Side note: this is another reason why elders are needed. One man shouldn't act as CEO over each or multiple congregations, it leads to trouble(3 John 1:9). Preaching/teaching and administrative duties should be spread out among the most experienced and qualified. (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Peter 5)
Agree, AFP with your analysis. GP was receiving a quarterly stipend from the San Antonio congregation and others have posted that their congregations send him money too.
The place I go to does give our preacher a salary, but we have solid elders who oversee. The preacher dedicates himself to just that – preaching. What I like is that the teachings are to the point and very organized in their presentation. At Merie's church there was a lot of disorganized lessons and many were boring or jumped around disconnected topics. Some who preached really just weren't made for it and should find something else to do. Not everyone is able to stand comfortably in front of a group of people.
AFP. Interesting comments. Our paid preachers have no idea who gives what amount. Our treasury and committee does however for those who want a financial statement for tax deductions. However many pay in cash so no one knows. I was in a church once when after a short while you would hear some say that this person or that person is a big giver and my question was how do you know? So was not given a good answer so left that church and that was the end of that. Never had to go through what all of you go through when leaving this cult. I am in a holiness church now and love it and have been over 35 years. What are some of the websites you mention about cults? Hopefully my family will walk away from this cult but they are all damaged. However, God can heal them and make them whole!
The only thing I can think of that GP might be getting money for right now is maybe because he has needs with his medical/daily bills because of his health. If that's the case then it's sort of understandable. If the congregations agreed to it and people already know what it's for then that's their business I guess.
Both evangelists in Merie's group receives a salary-but the amount, as the oldest evangelist said "'is my personal business". They also receive money for car insurance, etc. I know because the congregation I was in paid toward the salary for the oldert evangelist, as well as insurance. We also assisted the younger evangelist with insurance and other bills.
They do not disclose to anyone which congregations contribute the money, or how much they receive. There is no accountability. I know of one person who was withdrawn from for asking and insisting on knowing what the older evangelist was receiving. Their "reason" for the withdrawal was that she must have been speaking with the one who was marked and avoided. (if they have now decided that she is no longer marked and avoided, does that mean this other persons' withdrawal is null and void?). I guess they figure that no one would think to ask on their own?
But yes, the two evangelists are still receiving salaries. They do "supplement" their salaries by doing a small amount of work.
If that is true Debby then people need to bring attention to it ASAP!! That is a VERY big deal if they are punishing people simply for asking where the church money, which hard working people give into every week, is going. There is absolutely no excuse for it as others with serious needs in the church are denied help constantly, yet no one is allowed to know why or what they are getting money for? That's ridiculous! What a shame if true.
Debby and AFP great points about the two “evangelists” paid preachers as we called it support they received. Also for those that do not know the decision for supporting the two for life was made at the 2014 May meeting which I attended in Mobile. So GP and TC will receive a salary as long as they are in good standing till they die even if they do not do the work as an evangelist. Actually they do not do that work now nor have they for some years now. That discussion in Mobile was a complete joke. Who was going to say no even if they did not agree with the two sitting right there in everyone’s presence.
Thank you Craig for letting us know about that decision. I honestly don't remember hearing about it then or if it was really talked about much outside the meeting. Like I said though, if everyone knows about it and that's what they decided then fine, that's their business.
Still though, it's sad that people there can't see they are following man and not God. Honestly, why even go to a May meeting then if you can't speak your mind or disagree on anything. Why even go if only 4 people are allowed to make the decisions year after year for EVERY congregation? Can you all really not see it? Please refer to some of the links I posted below and hopefully it can help a little.
So GP shared in a discussion that the cult is confounding the world. Lol. Umm GP, 39 congregations over s 50 year or so spand all right here in your nation of the USA and one token compound in Mexico is not confounding the world ding dong. Knock knock GP you will never grow because your cult is dead. You all have failed miserably in taking the gospel out into ALL the world. You cannot even confound your own children.
Anon @ 1:00pm here a few websites I have saved. Just copy and paste them in your search bar at the top. Others are very easy to find if you just search for "spiritual abuse" topics in your browser. Let me know if you want more links, I can post them here or people can email me at Advocateforpeace1@gmail.com
I have tons saved but most are specific or personal topics for my own study/research.
Disclaimer: I do not agree with every doctrine or worship methods or solutions for abuse promoted by any of these sites. For research and information purposes only.
https://www.cultwatch.com/authoritarianleadership.html
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/07/24/should-we-speak-out-about-our-spiritually-abusive-church/
https://probe.org/abusive-churches-leaving-them-behind/
https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/06/24/mind-field-eight-ways-to-identify-religious-brainwashing-part-1-of-8/
http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/mindctrl/index.htm
Interesting survey I wanted to add here as well. It gives the score at the bottom to rate how bad the group is. Rate the SCOC for yourself here:
https://www.cultwatch.com/churchrisksurvey.html
Some of the identifiers I found interesting:
Information from the leadership is perceived as automatically true, while information from outside the group is automatically doubted.
The group gives your leaders expensive gifts.
All people who leave are seen as bad, or there are few approved reasons to leave.
They say, or imply, they’re the best or the only true group.
You (or others) have been told that if you disobey the leaders or leave the group, you will lose God’s blessing in our life.
They tell you who you can and can’t talk to, or who you can and can’t date.
The group takes up a lot of your time with meetings and other activities that you are expected to attend.
They encourage you to avoid friends and family outside of their group.
The leaders rule with fear and intimidation, or use character assassination as a tool to control members.
You are instructed not to read information critical of them.
Yes, AFP, most of these apply to Merie's cult. Even those who read here from the cult (anonymously, of course), know most of these apply to the Church of Merie Weiss.
AFP,
Yet, aren’t most of those true for the New Testament Church?
Wasn’t it true that leaders of the church are to be listened to more than those in the world?
Besides, you are badly duped if you think Google is a reputable information source. Even an atheist conservative can tell you that Googles search results are rigged against Christians. Just Google Trump and then Google Hillary. You’ll find out real quick what Google disinformation is all about.
Stanton was rightly skeptical of the internet. It has been an unmitigated disaster. 70% of the usage is for porn, according to Time magazine. And, it leads the naive and gullible down all kinds of rabbit holes. Those who do not have a library in their home, have no business searching for information on Google, because it’s quite probable their Google Search on any given topic will lead them astray, and leave them worse off than before they searched.
There were no expensive gifts in Stanton. Did you ever attend Stanton? Anyone who has would never dream of saying the leaders receive expensive gifts. And if the evangelists being paid makes Stanton a cult, then 95% of the churches in America are a cult. I don’t think stationary preachers ought to be paid, but it doesn’t make them a cult.
Not everyone who leaves is looked upon as bad. There are plenty of nonmember spouses who are treated nearly as good as Stanton treats their own.
Christ said his church was the only church, so that makes him a cult.
The Bible says disobeying Godly leaders is a bad idea. Ever heard of Korah?
Its wise to get counsel in dating and marriage, but mandating orders isn’t biblical.
The early church in America took all day Sunday for church and every bit of time that Stanton took. Please learn your history. A Christians life is to revolve around God, not vice versa.
Christ said he would bring a sword between family members. The truth tends to do that.
Godly rebukes are biblical.
Telling members to avoid information that is critical of the church is bogus.
Hey Ryan, there are a lot of things I dont agree with you on…but man, keep telling it like it is. It's a lot more refreshing than the stuff from the whimpering whimpers on this site. Keep it coming.
Hello Ryan. The few examples I've copied and posted from the survey aren't meant to be taken literally, nor are they applicable in every instance. I don't believe everything "Google" has to say either, which is why I put a disclaimer saying so before I posted any links.
You said:
"Wasn’t it true that leaders of the church are to be listened to more than those in the world?" and "The Bible says disobeying Godly leaders is a bad idea. Ever heard of Korah?"
As it relates to biblical teaching? Yes you should obey leaders. As it relates to man-made or false teachings? No
"There were no expensive gifts in Stanton."
I don't know of any either, and as I've already stated above I don't have a problem with people being paid nor do I think it somehow makes them a cult. The point was simply that money can become an issue if people aren't careful.
"Not everyone who leaves is looked upon as bad. There are plenty of nonmember spouses who are treated nearly as good as Stanton treats their own."
Non member spouses are treated fine like you said but they are not members who leave. They just aren't members. Most of the people that were members that left have things made up about them.
"Christ said his church was the only church, so that makes him a cult."
Christs church isn't a specific building or organization.
"Its wise to get counsel in dating and marriage, but mandating orders isn’t biblical."
Agreed.
"The early church in America took all day Sunday for church and every bit of time that Stanton took. Please learn your history. A Christians life is to revolve around God, not vice versa." also "Christ said he would bring a sword between family members. The truth tends to do that."
Nothing wrong at all worshiping all day Sunday, that isn't what it's talking about. Yes we should put God above other things in life, but not at the EXPENSE of all else. If you have a spouse that's sick and needs to go to the ER, saying to them "Sorry honey, get someone else to take you, I have to go to bible class" is not correct.
Also yes we shouldn't be unequally yoked with non believers and bad influences, but not burn bridges completely. Being a good example and showing how God changes our lives can help others want to turn to God. A few commenters here have family that has shown an interest in seeking God after seeing the positive changes they've gone through.
"Godly rebukes are biblical."
In cases of legitimate sin? Yes, nobody has a problem with that. However a lot of people are falsely accused of things all the time, including yourself.
"Telling members to avoid information that is critical of the church is bogus."
Are you saying the statement is bogus or that you agree that it's wrong? I'm not sure of their stance currently, but it was being said that people should stay away from the blog.
You're correct that the internet shouldn't be the MAIN source of information, but to ignore any and all outside info is even worse. This blog for instance has helped many people heal and understand the problems. I can't speak for everyone here but for me the criticism is to help make things better, not to attack them.
AFP, you're on target on your replies. And as for the Church of Weiss and others saying that Google shouldn't be your only source, I agree. Now let's apply that to the SCOC. Don't let just what they tell you be your only source either. Search the scriptures, listen to different viewpoints, assess your own experiences as objectively as possible, as well as those of others who have been affected.
The Sunday after I left, it was taught for others not to speak to me "for a while" and somewhere in there it was said "Google is not your friend." No mention of this site–God forbid others make connections and realize they're not alone.
Well, it wasn't Google who told me to leave. It was my own experiences and observations and looking at scripture that helped me along. Google helped me find this site. It wasn't filled with what Google wrote. It is filled with the stories and experiences of many who have been hurt by Merie Weiss's religion.
The scriptures are pretty time consuming in and of themselves, and I find other sources only confirm what the scriptures teach. For example in Proverbs 10:15 it say the destruction of the poor is their poverty and on the surface this does not seem to make sense because there are a great many poor who live just fine in this world but when you consider the example of Job you see a man who was wealthy and then reduced to poverty very quickly yet it did not destroy him because he was not poor in spirit but rather rich in faith. In studying survival psychology I see similar behavior with those who survive disasters and those who perish. Those who survive have faith in themselves or faith in God and endure the difficult times and after the hardship go on to live peaceful and prosperous lives. Those who are poor in spirit, poor in faith, die quickly or if they live, suffer PTSD for a very long time. I have always believed oppression to be an evil to be hated, despised, and rejected yet I have suffered under oppression many times in my life only to come out from under it and prosper. Oppression is part of life to be endured and then to learn from and grow from. My time in the SCOC was oppressive, harsh, and tyrannical yet I survived it and today I realize that oppressors come and go and oppression lasts only for a short time. My time in the SCOC was a war both with non members and members alike but in studying the gospels I see how Christ's wisdom was that of peace and considering how destructive war is to a person's life I seek peace as often as possible with others. The internet is amoral; that is it is neither good nor evil, but how it is used by a person makes it a blessing or a curse.
AFP bingo, all but the expensive gifts to leaders. At least not to my knowledge.
Maybe not gifts but they are the only ones that receive a salary and are being supported by the church treasury for life as you stated earlier. Just something for people to think about.
AFP 1:07 very true the two evangelists will be supported for life.
The evangelist Jim Mickelson recieved many gifts even to the point that a rack was installed on the trunk if his car to carry them all, however the current leader in Spring Valley refuses personal gifts that have been offered him like personal checks handed to him have been returned with the comment it is not needed. The offering of free services such as free auto repair and free house repairs have been accepted by leaders but were not offered to any other members of the local congregation making it a gift only made to leadership. Auto repairs can be very expensive as can home repairs. Legal bills have been paid for by members, again very expensive and again only for leaders, the gifts have been both given and recieved. Cults like most human organization have a life cycle, the are created, they grow, they mature, and they fade away. Because a group does not possess all characteristics of a mature cult does not mean that they are not a cult they may simply be in the growth stage. The egregious cults are the death cults which members die at the end of the life of the cult and which are to numerous to mention but just because a cult is not a death cult does not exclude it nor forgive its abusive behavior from the classification of being a cult.
Right on! Is it not sick? Disgusting how vulnerable people fall into the trap and some will never get out.
Thought reform or brainwashing is insidious. Step one is to convince the potiential recruit that they are not corrupt but it is the society that surrounds them that is corrupting and by joining the group they will be free from the corrupting influences of that society. As soon as the recruit becomes a member the indoctrination begins usually with love bombing then indoctrination of the groups ideology through constant repetition of phrases such as: we are the one true church, which is used by the LDS church, the Jehovah Witnesess, the ICOC, and many others. The phrase "one true church" is not found in the bible but is in fact a trick to stop critical thinking, who would question the behaviors of the "one true church" or its leaders? That would be like questioning God himself. Other phrases to stop critical thinking (questioning) are repeated until internalized as true by the new member. Not every new member will accept the groups doctrine as true and those who do not are forced out through harrassessment or outright rejection. To deprogram yourself you have to develop or redevelop critical thinking skills. Ask yourself what good behaviors(virtues) have members developed under group teaching if any? I was taught only to follow leadership by seeking council before making any decision, and little else. This follow the leader doctrine taught me little to no Christian virtues like temperance, praise, thankfulness, but rather a fearful attitude of being publicly rebuked for breaking an unwritten rule. Questioning leadership or any of the multitude of rules was dealt with very quickly and very harshly, disobedience was not tollerated. High pressure tactics were common with people being called out by name in Bible class for some wrong and publicly humiliated in front of the whole congregation, to oppose the preacher in such a public forum would get one withdrawn from for murmuring. Isolation from family and friends is accomplished not through moving to a remote compound controlled by the group (like Jonestown) but rather through busyness, you are so busy with group activities like numerous Bible classses and personal work that you have no time for any other outside relationships. There is much more but the methods of recruitment and control are insidious and have to be pointed out and their effects explained to be understood.
A question for all about a certain scripture. What is everyone's understanding on James 4:17? KJV "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
To briefly give my thinking on it, I try to keep it simple and think of the "good" as what the bible says, or commands, us to do. There are a lot of things that can be considered good in theory that the bible doesn't tell us to do, and it seems dangerous to make up our own understanding of "good". A person could come up with something they think is "good" and call it sin when they or another person don't do it, even if God doesn't command it. So I try to keep it strictly to what the bible says I should do.
The way some of the teachers in the SCOC use it seems like they come up with their own understanding of what is considered "good", then call it or think it sins when people don't follow them. For example they teach that the women should wear nylons on Sundays. Do they think it's a sin if a woman doesn't wear them? Just trying to understand their reasoning on things. Does anyone have a different understanding, or any example of a poor exegesis of this scripture?
In different translations the term is either "good" or "right". I have always seen this as something that has to be looked at not in its immediate context but rather the context of the New Testament as a whole, which gives us room to exercise our OWN conscience. If we know something is right and has to be done yet we fail to do it, it is a sin. The recurring problem in Merie's church is the constant overriding of one's own conscience with "understandings", such as the one you mentioned about pantyhose. This site is full of the ways that the church of Weiss has hijacked its members' consciences with their understandings for the sake of "unity". One has to ask, does God prefer a facade of unity over allowing people to follow the conscience He gave them? Food for thought.
M Long, yes exactly. Other than what the bible says, the rest should be left to our own conscience. The church can only command what the bible commands. The bible tells women to be modest, so if they want to wear nylons or even dress up like a nun that's completely up to them. It's fine to teach on modesty, however the church can not command a woman to do either of those, or call it sin if they don't. It's only a sin to be immodest (not indiscreet, please stop using that word it means something different). Or how they used to teach women shouldn't wear pants with zippers. I mean every clothing store has a men's and women's section, people can tell the difference between clothing styles. You really think God cares about zippers?
We all can have different interpretations of certain scriptures and it seems like some simply misunderstand them at times. None of us have all the answers after all. However the way certain scriptures are used and twisted sometimes really does make you wonder if it's deliberate or not. Not trying to accuse anyone in particular it's just that there have been many scriptures I've seen used (this is just one of them) that really seem to be misapplied on a regular basis. Some in an authoritative manner, like Psalms 105:15 for example which is actually a popular one in a lot of abusive churches.
Just trying to be solid on these things not only for myself, but to also be better at teaching others. Plus to be able to better spot potential oppressors.
As Craig points out below, these are some specific examples from Merie's church that I've heard too. Here's the problem. Merie's church has many members who literally cannot think for themselves. They're so afraid of making a mistake or being reproved that they copy someone else's decisions. Even when they are taught that things are just examples, they will follow them as rules. Do others understand what I'm saying here? Sometimes when I'd do my own thing instead of the example, I'd get a look of disapproval from others or be reproved as "not the best" thing to do.
AFP, I hear ya. Seems I too am on a constant lookout for oppressors. Sadly, we humans can be like the Israelites who wanted a king to tell them what to do, to judge for them and rule over them. Nothing new under the sun, indeed.
Completely agree with you M Long. I understand your point and have seen these things as well. Was just pointing out the specific scriptures they use to justify these things and why they are wrong. Hopefully these things can help people use their own conscience.
"to him"
Should keep people from binding their own conscience and will on other members.
A favorite scripture of TC James 4:17 is. Sure wish I had the recording of him discussing this scripture. Totally binding there conscience on others which began with Merie. For example miss a family members or close friends funeral or wedding on a class night wouldn’t bother my conscience one bit. Matter of fact it would bother my conscience to mid the funeral for sure no matter where it was held. Miss my child being born or a family member having a serious surgery on a class night. Class can be missed. Called into work as well if miss the class and would not call it sin. Just another scripture the dictators such as TC used to control his cult members.
Craig, they seem to use Matthew 16:19 for this too saying that classes are "bound" or something like that. It was brought up in the comments somewhere before, not sure which page it is on though. This also seems incorrect because they are trying to use it to come up with any rule they want which is not what it is saying.
For me, Matthew 16:19 is simply talking about giving the churches the authority and responsibility (keys) to teach what God teaches, not come up with your own rules and they are somehow "bound" by God.
The church has the authority and responsibility to teach what the bible says to do (Gods' law), to teach against what God is against (sin), and to rebuke or discipline those who commit sin (transgression of the law). It does not give the church authority to teach it's okay to do something God is against (which is false doctrine). Or for man to teach their own doctrine (commandments of men).
For example, the bible teaches baptism is necessary for salvation, so the church must teach and practice it. The bible teaches adultery is sin, so the church must teach against it. If someone commits sin and doesn't repent, the church has the authority to discipline them. etc etc. The church may not teach it's okay to sin, like in the Revelation letter the example of Jezebel teaching it's okay to fornicate and sacrifice to idols. There are plenty of scriptures in both the old and new testaments where God is clearly against those things. The church also may not teach man-made doctrines, like saying circumcision is still required, or coming up with rules surrounding the sabbath that God never commanded like the Pharisee's did. Or that you need to be 6-12 inches apart while having sex like in the SCOC.
Do they still use this scripture like this currently? Does anyone here think differently about this scripture as well?
Advocate for Peace-Yes they still use these scriptures to bind anything they want to control their members. as I mentioned before, my husband and I decided to move 2 and a half hours from the "church" to support family there. all was okay until the 'higher ups' got wind of it. Then Bill told me we were not moving. Did they tell him " You are forbidden to move"? NO. I'm sure it was more like, this would not be good for your soul.
To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Would they come back and say it was an absolute sin? I doubt it. It would fall under the guise of JUDGEMENT. If my husband decided to use his OWN judgement, since it WAS just a judgement call, would there be negative consequences for him moving?
ABSOLUTELY!!! He would be called out, sat down and humiliated for going with his own judgement. All authority is stripped from the members- especially the men.
The saddest part of all of this is, my husband (and all other members) sit in a prison cell _ AND THE DOOR IS WIDE OPEN.
Funny thing is, my husband agreed this is the case!!
Please keep praying for those still in captivity!
I am trying to figure out how to have sex 6 to 12 inhes apart and please don’t tell me people actually follow this rule.
Also the church telling you when and where you can go and whose wedding or funeral you can attend depending on which venue is used for the service? This is unbelievable that people actually have a rule like this in their “one true church” and they follow it. If this is not a cult then I will eat my hat! What will it take for people to walk out and see what a beautiful life you can have if you start using your God given brain and get into a healthy church. Sure we have our trials but God shows a way to get through them with Him.
Concerned Outsider- Lol! I would explain the distance for sex but that would be too much info. My husband and I were withdrawn for this infraction. Oh the twisted minds and teaching to get you to tell on yourselves!!! If they would only turn James 4:17 around on themselves!
God will judge.
Hebrews says that those who are married have an honored marriage bed. The one He will judge
Is the adulterers and whoremongers.
This all makes me literally sick.. And I was married to someone still in the church . Does the 6 to 12 inch rule still apply? .. I wish I could laugh but I'd rather throw up.. One person's mind started this rule… That alone is sick! Unreal!
To clarify and be fair, they don't teach it currently as far as I know. They used to like Donna pointed out, and I just mentioned it as a random example relevant to them.
If you want to know the current rules for marital sex, along with everything else, look on the left side of the page under "book of rules". It has all the links explaining the rules past and present.
As AFP mentioned they do not currently teach what Concerned Outsider 10:52 brought up. As Anon 1:06 said one persons mind started this rule. A sick mind at that. Does anyone know who started that teaching. Sounds so Merie like. Point is the self proclaimed one and only true church taught such a perverted rule. How could that be with The Holy Spirit guiding them? Answer just another false religion this one being a cult teaching false ways. As Kevin and others have brought out on this blog many false teachings of Merie’s cult has been exposed. Members dismiss GP’s bully threats and continue to read the blog and learn what you are involved in. Do so easily recognized as a cult with many false ways.
One way in which cults control is through the redefining of language. The word "good" can be defined in many different ways such as one cult leader teaching that the dead in Christ rise first so we should do the "good" thing and kill our relative today. Another way to deceive is to redefine the meanings of emotions such as fear and love. When a person is about to go against their conscience they get afraid and usually do not do their intended act of disobedience but one cult leader redefined the meaning of fear as a good thing and the more you feel it the more you love yourself and his followers then went on to commit murder for him without mercy because they believed they were doing something "good"(the cult leaders name was Charles Manson from the book Helter Skelter written by the prosecuting attorney). When I was in the SCOC a scripture that was used to both discourage and encourage was 1 John 3:20 for if our heart condemn us God is greater than our hearts and knoweth all things; if the teacher wanted to discourage them he laid a guilt trip teaching that we were really wrong and if he wanted to encourage then he taught that God forgives us because he knows our hearts( implied that our heart is better than our actions). The meanings of scriptures, words, and emotions change as the leader see fit and there is not foundation of stone but the foundation is of sand and when the winds of change blows the foundation crumbles and many followers are left confused and scratching their heads wondering what have I been doing following the scriptures or a mans twisted and self serving "understandings"?
One method used in the SCOC that I attended, to force submission of members to the teaching preacher, was that of being overwhelming. Being yelled at for two hours non stop during a mid week Bible study for offering a supporting opinion about a may week question was pretty overwhelming to me. This form of bullying causes trama to the individual and the public "rebuking" I was given did more harm than good. PTSD has three phases: hyperarousal, intrusion, and constriction. In constriction a person goes through cycles of terror and rage, and for me I realized the source of my anger toward bullies was the psychological trauma I suffered while I was enduring the oppression in the SCOC. I watch for the overwhelming behaviors of bullies today, like a short tempers, and when it is exhibited I get up and walk out, I refuse to listen to a bully berate me to death. If you feel overwhelmed the best thing to do is exit the situation before you can be traumatized.
What's interesting, Craig, is that they know how to use this verse for correction, yet not for personal responsibility. I.e., they are quick to use this for missing classes, even if for infirmities, yet won't apply it to themselves in reference to the second half of Matt 25.
I have seen and heard them badger people for missing classes for infirmities, illness, and injury. On tape, in another congregation, they badgered this one brother who had broken his leg that he needed to still attend class.
A lot of them miss the point on what the purpose of the church is.
Donna, they used to use the scriptures about the congregation being they body and we are all parts of it, so if we choose to move then we are taking away that part of the body that God has planted here to elsewhere.
"did more harm than good"
I love God, the bible, and the church. The biggest things I can to come to terms with is that I would NOT be able to work out my salvation there and my joy was almost gone.
Even though I wasn't preaching, I was doing a lot of extra studying, writing talks, doing a lot of talking at the doors, and even participating in classes with sharing and answering questions. In the last few years being there I was not happy and was really reluctant to come.
They were always being on me about my family being there, but when I did bring them they were not happy and there was no excitement for them to want to be there. My wife and kids wanted to learn more about the bible, but not from there.
I talked with some of the children of the church and they were of the same mind. Most of them left home when they got old enough. They saw what was going on and I knew of some who did not like how they treated them members.
Lynn mm- Yes, they drive people away with their ridiculous rules, and in the process those people never know the LOVE of God.
The Des Moines congregation is full of troubled teens because who need love rather than rules. So many of these kids were labeled "BAD" as soon as they tried to be their own person. Unfortunately, I was one of those parents. Now I know how wrong it was to drive my kids away by trying to force church rules on them.
Some teachers in the SCOC still don't really understand that there are realities of life, and telling people to ignore them doesn't make one more righteous. Just because a person may miss a class due to illness, work, weddings, funerals, etc does not mean they somehow don't care about God or think that he is less important. That's absurd. A lot of how they act and what they teach is done out of self-righteousness. They look down on others who don't make the same "sacrifices" as them. Harassing people to "push the flesh" is done for boasting and to make themselves look better than others outwardly. People with love in their hearts would find ways to help each other instead.
Lynn, as you've been pointing out for years now, acts of love not only take precedence over the law (Luke 6:9), but is actually fulfilling the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:13-14), and against such there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23)!! Those who have chronic illness or infirmity and are disabled need help and not harassment (Matthew 25 like you said).
I remember reading a story a pastor told (not part of the SCOC) where he said he was so fearful of missing anything that he would drag his wife and kids to church even when they were really sick. Their protests, cries, even kicking and screaming didn't matter to him because God was more important right? It wasn't until later he started to notice the negative effects it had on his family and how they reacted poorly to him and to God because of it. He soon realized he wasn't doing it to please God, but to please himself, and to make his family look good to the congregation.
God does not care about self-righteous sacrifices, especially when there is a lack of love involved or it disobeys a direct command to love. In Matthew 15:1-9 Jesus gives a great example of it. In verse 4 he quotes Exodus 20:12 and 21:17 saying that God commanded we honor our parents. Even during this time it was known for people to take care of their parents in old age. Yet in verses 5 and 6 they ignore it by their tradition of saying that all they owned was for God only (Corban). Instead of helping their own parents who would come to them for help they would rather brag that they gave so much for God, but this really was to make themselves look more righteous to others. Jesus was teaching them that God would not accept their gifts because they were only trying to look good on the outside, when clearly it would have been more pleasing to God for them to love and honor their parents like he told them to. Yet there are many people, including the SCOC at times, that care more about rules and tradition than these things.
They dedicated their belongings to the temple, (it is a gift) to keep from helping parents in their old age only to get their property back in Jubilee.
Yes Lynn mm, that was one of the worst things about it. They acted like it was for God but they ended up getting those things back and kept it for themselves instead of helping others.
This is the true hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Not just in their rules and traditions but their lack of love and empathy for others. When Jesus healed people it says they were filled with madness! They didn't care a miracle was performed in front of them or that people were being helped. It's not much different today. Lacking empathy and compassion for others is a huge problem in churches because of Narcissism and self-righteousness, and is a much deeper topic.
Lynn MM and Donna, totally agree. The one and only true church can not even raise up there own children to become members. Why would that be? The children are not foolish, they see through the falsehood of the cult. Baptisms of children raised in the cult have been few and far between in Tacoma and Portland. These children obviously are not seeing good examples in there homes with parents. They are forced to attend when they do not want to attend. Rules, rules and more rules. I still wonder why GP and PP have no children that have been added to the cult? Oh see above.
Great points about the kids. Most of the ones I know that currently attend told me they can't wait until they are old enough to leave. Some of the ones who have left a long time ago have even left the state and want to be far away from their family.
The parents still like to put all the blame on the world and would say the kids are just "carnal" and want to live in sin. The truth is is they leave because of how they are treated by their parents and even brethren at times. People would be surprised at some of the conversations the teens would have among themselves talking about some of the adults. Hopefully the ones reading here can come to truly understand God.
It was really bad in the early 80's. In one congregation, the children had a "hit" list against certain members.
When the preacher from the south and his family moved up to Tacoma I stood in class over some judgments he was trying to institute on how to handle your child if another member accused them of something that your child says they didn't do. He was saying that we should take the members' word over our child's and even spank them if the member demands it.
I had a step father who was like that. Believe everybody else but us and we would get smacked around for it. My mind was that our children would stand a chance of losing and respect of us if we just punished/spanked them for not doing anything wrong and not trust the church because we did it because another member demanded it.
I know that everybody is responsible for their not obeying the truth, but how much will God impute on me for having a hand in them not wanting to obey out of a lack of trust and/or faith?
Some people should never be parents. All of these weird beliefs that are put on the children is simply child abuse because of the weird way the parents are taught in this cult and those teachings are passed down. No wonder they leave as soon as they are 18. Unfortunately some make very poor choices while others do very well as long as they do not go back.
Advocate, you should do a guest blog post on this topic. Need a fresh post anyway.
M Long, not a bad idea. Maybe I should call Kevin. Not sure how receptive people are to my postings though. I still feel like I'm all over the place when I try to explain things…
Advocate for Peace, I personally would love for you to write a guest post.
Another question on a scripture. What does everyone think about 1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (I quote KJV because I know that's the only translation they use)
For me it's saying to simply stay away from evil. Appearance (to present/in the presence of) of evil (sin) isn't talking about things that LOOK evil but ARE evil. How can there be sin if no evil is actually committed?
In the SCOC they currently teach that even if something looks evil you must confess it. For example, if you ride alone in the car with someone of the opposite sex that's similar in age, that would be a public confession. Even if nothing inappropriate happened they still say you have to confess just because others might THINK something bad of it.
What does everyone else think of this?
AFP: I wholeheartedly agree with your understanding of 1 Thess 5:22.
Ya.. Everyone on the freeway thinks horrible things when they see a male and female in a car together.. Such evilness lol! I was told to obey this rule.. I laughed inside the whole time.. And again, here it starts from ONE crazy mind and goes from there. BUT YET it was OK for MM and a teacher to ride together.. Crazy.. Just crazy
Oh I love this question because I felt like it made so much more sense. The original text actually means to abstain WHEN EVIL APPEARS. That's right! The "appearance of evil" refers to evil showing up! That makes complete sense!
God doesn't tell us to do what "Appears good". He tells us to just do good. Same with evil. When evil appears, when it is presents itself, refrain from participating in it.
This helped free me from all the things that could possibly even appear as if they were evil, and as we know from our experience in the Merie's church, this could be just about anything!
They justified it by saying that this is away we can bring reproach on the church by seemingly looking like we are engaging in sin. I.e can't drink rootbeer in a dark bottle as it looks like real beer.
Well buying the root beer looks like buying beer then.. Lol.. So laughing here.. Lol!
Aren't you glad that we're no longer tied to the what-ifs? What if someone sees me going down the wine aisle to get water bottles at the end of it? What if I do drink a sparkling cider that looks like a wine bottle? What if I need a ride and someone from the opposite sex is available to help? What if my appliance repairman comes and I am home alone? What if Merie Weiss comes back from the dead to reprove me…
M Long.. Thanks for the chuckle.. Lol! It's sad the way mind's have to think.. I believe those minds have a lot of "issues" to even come up with this stuff.. Lol
AFP you are correct on your understanding on 1 Thessalonians 5:22. This is a scripture that cult leaders could control and oppress members. Portland actually discussed this scripture and we had the same understanding as you the last time we went into it. I’m not sure if Merie’s cult hood changed its understanding.
I was taught that participating in a drawing, even a free drawing, was an appearance of evil because it resembled gambling. I was also taught that we could not go to a local carnival because it was "carnal reveling" but that was changed after a may week to we could go to carnivals but not the "midway" where games were played for prizes because that too resembled gambling.
Lynn mm, I also think that the example that was given about 1 Peter 2:20 is wrong. You shouldn't punish your child just because someone tells you to. The context only talks about how we are supposed to handle being treated poorly, especially when we do good. That we should't retaliate or seek revenge out of anger. It does not mean we don't defend ourselves nor does it excuse or absolve the ones doing the mistreating or false accusing. To tell people that is manipulation pure and simple. No where does it say that it's okay to falsely accuse or bear false witness against each other. In fact there are plenty of scriptures that clearly state it's a sin to do so. It only tells us to handle it patiently. If it's a small matter but guilt can't be proven, you should just let it go, don't punish "just in case". (serious matters like child sexual abuse is when authorities need to investigate, not the church)
This is why Matthew 18 is so important. It's not just used for correction, but to investigate if there is even sin in the first place. If someone is accused of something you go to them to confirm it, not just rebuke publicly hoping it will change something. Especially when you don't even know the full story.
In fact I have talks from different meetings, including recent ones, that go into this exact topic and how these things are oppressive and why they are wrong. A lot of people who read here keep thinking that people are making things up or exaggerating (maybe a few are, obviously can't say for sure). But there is oppression still going on, and it seems like every year there's a talk from a meeting somewhere that proves it (I can email talks if people want it). It's not just coming from this blog but from the congregations themselves. People notice these things and know they are wrong.
I agree. It was taught that if they were buffeted for something you didn't do, as a child, then it just gets you ready to be a Christian. Seems they use any excuse to keep treating people this way.
They need to consider this –
Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
This is the condition of Tacoma –
Ezekiel 34
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
Lynn mm, check your email. I've sent you a talk where they mention some of these things and teach that it's wrong for people (especially teachers) to act this way.
Lynn MM you knowing the preacher in Portland MM may be surprised but he had his favorites. I heard many of words come out of his mouth that you’d think really and you’re a preacher. He absolutely gave up on members when he decided he did all that he could do and did not know what else to do. These members would be the ones he would send myself to visit.
Maybe he had done all he could do but God can do anything! Where was his faith??
They probably did not have enough money or maybe a disruptive child or not a nice enough house or his wife too fat or some other ridiculous excuse to turn them over to you. How negative! What did he expect you to do? On the other hand, maybe he thought you would be better at visiting with them since he was so self righteous. Is anyone watching Greenleaf? A very dysfunctional church of some of the have and have nots.
Haven't heard of Greenleaf, but there is another show called Cults and Extreme Beliefs that came out this year. It's a documentary type show where ex-members of abusive churches share their experiences being part of these groups (I think the first episode was about an ex jehovahs witness further exposing how crazy they are).
There's one recent episode from a former member of a group called the 12 Tribes that kind of ties in with some of the recent comments about children.
The woman talks about how when she was 7, her father was a musician for the group. He noticed one day that his guitar had been messed with and asked who messed with it. A little boy came forward and falsely accused her of messing with her father's guitar when she didn't. Her father asked her if she did it and she said no, then he called her a liar and sent her to her room.
For the next 7 days they locked her in her room and she was only fed one meal a day each day. Every day when an adult went to feed her they would say things like "why don't you just tell the truth?" or "why do you keep lying" and even "God spoke to us and told us you did it". She kept crying and praying to God every day hoping they would believe her, but they never did. It was thanks to this experience (and other forms of abuse) that she decided, at a mere 7 years old, that when she was an adult she was leaving them for good.
There's a lot more that happened after that but the point is, punishing your children for something they didn't do isn't right. It won't prepare them to be a "good christian", neither does doing it to members make them a "better christian". It will only cause people to be hurt and will make the children want nothing to do with you.
Narcissists don't respond to situations with compassion, they always respond with consequences. They always feel the need to "teach someone a lesson" and need people to see things their way. Anybody who doesn't is automatically an enemy (even their own children) and is harshly punished or abandoned. They don't care about truth and justice because even when they are proven wrong they just shrug it off and act like it's not their fault ("God allowed it"). They tell people to "get over it" and "toughen up" because they lack empathy and don't care or notice if they hurt others. Then they scratch their heads and wonder why people, and even their kids, want nothing to do with them. If that sounds like someone you know please pray for them.
Craig, The "preacher from the south (CS)" said the same to me in that he was giving up. I wouldn't dance for him, so I was labeled "not worthy".
A number of years ago I found a forum made up people who turned their backs on the Churches of Christ. That forum was rough.
I think this is it
http://ex-churchofchrist.com/SupportBoard/
An excellent read is Mormonism without theism by Michael W. Goe. It explains in detail about Joseph Smith the gifted eclectic and all the different sources he used to compile his book of mormon, and has a section about Alexander Campbell and his "primitive Christianity" ninety nine cents on amazon kindle.
AFP I am definitely checking out that show. Seeing so many cult groups have so much in common helps me forgive myself for not seeing the seemingly obvious issues in Merie's church.
M Long, Another documentary show that's very similar is People Magazine Investigates: Cults. It is also new show that covers some of the more popular and more violent groups.
One of the episodes actually covers the Jim Jones cult. Reading about it is one thing, but to actually hear from ex-members themselves who were there added more perspective for me. I learned some new things from it that I never heard about them before. Especially hearing some of the audio of Jim speaking and how disturbing it is. A lot of the people admit to knowing that a lot of what he said and did was wrong but never spoke up about it. Makes you realize how important it is to not be silent about certain things and shows where a lust for power and control can lead people.
Thanks AFP. I did find this link and will watch when I get a chance.
https://people.com/crime/cults-featured-people-magazine-investigates/
It's interesting because some here might say that Merie's cult isn't a cult because it's not about sex or money. But the overwhelming theme of Any cult is that of control and manipulation. Who can deny that Merie's church exerts so much control? You know they control how far and when you travel, and for how long you can visit family. You know the teachers (counselors) can manipulate how you deal with your spouse by using their "judgments". You know how they controlled what little time parents spent with their children because they were too busy doing the works Merie and then her leaders demanded of them.
This is all wrong, and I see the damage this organization has done to families. To marriages. Let NO MAN put asunder is irrelevant there. Any leader can get between you and your spouse.
I love that my husband and I are learning on our own now how to deal with our marriage issues without any interference. Things get resolved faster and easier. Instead of being forced to forgive each other, we just naturally do. It's amazing what a good marriage one can have without others snooping in your business. Merie obviously never got 1 Thessalonians 4:11.
Once again I must comment. Why does your pastor or whatever you call him have the power to determine if “a person is not worthy”. No one has that power unless the person allows it. On the other hand if they have little contact with normal people from all walks of life and get experiences good and bad I guess that is why? The little weasel I met who leads a cult in my community would have no power over me. I do not trust him.
This is something that I have been trying to figure out for quite a while. It seems that these types of people execute the word in a way that reflects their personality rather than by the wisdom of God. Holding the truth in unrighteousness. They have the truth, but disseminate in accordance to their carnal minds. They show mercy, love, longsuffering, understanding, etc., by how much their carnal minds allow and/or disallow.
If we are under God's tutelage then we would display the traits that given through the fruits of the Spirit. A carnal mind gives up and won't spend the time and effort to work with God's people. I really believe that people don't keep in the forefronts of their minds that Christians are the children God and what we do to and/or don't do to them we do and/or don't do to God. How can I say I am a defender of the faith, watcher of the flock, and give up on his own people.
1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.
We know that God referred to David as this. What a way to be seen by God that we are after his own heart. We know what God's heart is through the scriptures and anybody who can just give up on another Christian, who is plainly not giving into or keeping a hold on sin, who needs their brethren, is NOT of the right heart.
1, 2, and 3 John are all over this.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
They follow the scriptures just like the Pharisee's of old. When the scripture empowers them they preach it; and when the scripture corrects them they do not teach it but rather substitute "Merie said" and avoid that scripture. My first teaching preacher love bombed those above him and despised those below him, unless of course it made him look good in the eyes of the national leaders to speak well of his spiritual inferiors like: "hey look at this babe, she is going to make a good teacher!". At the may meeting those with the spirit of a pharisee would bewail and moan about how troubled they were by this one brother or sister and what a burden they were thus playing the victim and receiving the sympathy of the spiritual leaders, meanwhile the individual back in the home congregation has no idea they are being scapegoated to save the low quality teacher from being reproved, or rebuked for their poor spiritual performance. An eclectic preacher or teacher is a false teacher, taking from many different sources their lessons and sermons and ignoring God's word the Bible. The next time you hear a lesson by webster, or Merie said, or Alexander Campbell said, or any other source book other than the Bible, in a bible class, realize you are listening to a fake, a fraud, an imposter, a false teacher. Some self employed preachers use the services of the brethren for free, like "pass out flyers for my self employment business" or use the teenage boys without payment because after all that's what their teaching preacher did to them. The attack style teaching keeps many members in silence out of fear of public humiliation and the evil examples continue unabated.
What a bunch of bitter ridiculousness.
Anon 10:54am , and 4:56pm I encourage you to read the personal stories that can be found on the left sidebar. Especially Tracy Geautreau's story where she mentions these things, plus there are some enlightening and well worded comments about it on that page too.
I have also seen these things and noticed that some preachers and teachers judge people based on their own opinions and standards. It really does vary between congregations, but in most places within the group it's the same. It can take a long time for people to notice what is going on (sometimes many years) since it seems biblical on the surface because of how they use certain scriptures. Many times though those scriptures are twisted to suit their own motives (see James 4:17 above).
This blog might make things look simple but the oppression is often subtle and covert, and many people still don't see or relate to what other are talking about here. To really understand it you have to go through it yourself. Most "counsel" is done privately so when situations like rebukes or withdrawals or people leaving happen, the congregation is completely in the dark and just goes along with whatever the teacher says, even if it's a lie (and continue to spread the lies to every congregation). Speaking up about injustice often leads to more punishment since they rarely ever admit they were wrong and care more about people submitting to them than telling the truth.
Like Debby Stevens said, they love to make assumptions (evil surmising) and state them as facts, or completely twist the facts. It is incredibly difficult to reason with them since words take on entirely new meanings for them. It's not just simple misunderstandings but they go WAY out of bounds with a lot of their reasoning to the point it's like you're speaking a different language. Arguing with them just goes in circles.
I don't really know how to explain it because their way of thinking is sometimes so distorted and disconnected from reality. It's like the kind of people that get offended at everything, even compliments. For example I could say "Hey Craig that was a great comment!" then Craig says "Oh, so all my other comments are bad?". Or I say "Hey M Long, you look nice today!" and she says "Oh, so I don't look nice everyday?" (Craig and M Long don't act that way obviously, just an example). It might not be an exact comparison but that's kind of how it is talking with teachers at times, at least for me it was.
Christians are Children of God??? Really??? What are the billions of others who are not. Chopped Liver?? No, you are not special if you call yourself Christian, even if you have been decieved to think so. Don't go calling people spreading lies, Teachers. They may preach, but don't trust them to teach. They are usually under-educated themselves for the sake of mind controlby their insidious ruler. They only know what they are told to know. Any PHDs out there, any state certified teachers, nah just under-educated fools who believe they are actually doing the work of an imagined spirit. Now if that ain't nuts, I must be belong in the crazy house myself
I must agree with KF. And I was in the church for a short time but I saw through everyone right from the start. I think I rolled my eyes and laughed to myself in that short time more than I have in my lifetime LOL
Just a bunch of bitterness? Lets look at the ecletic preaching. Alexander Campbell wrote the Christian baptist as satire against the paid preachers of his days yet I heard Alexander Campbells writings in the Christian baptist quoted repeatedly in both sermons and lessons as doctrine to be followed, where is the biblical strictness claimed in the slogan "we speak where the bible speaks and are silent where the bible is silent"? Satire does not make for good doctrine, and is an eclectic source. Many lessons I heard were not biblical at all but the teaching preachers opinion, again the source of doctrine is not the Bible but an eclectic source. "I heard on a tape that Merie said and so we should do", anothet eclectic source of doctrine. With so many different sources for doctrine false teachings will abound.
When a spiritual leader says "I think" or "I feel" they are offering their opinion and not Biblical doctrine. When suggestions are made by leaders and not followed the disobedient follower is publicly rebuked and this is done to give suggestions (counsel)the same weight as a commandment. Are leaders allowed to have their own leadership style? Sure as seen in the behavior of Peter the Apostle: John the baptist taught the Roman soldiers to "do no violence to any man" yet we read of Peter taking a sword and cutting the ear off of Malcus a servant of the high priest when they came to take Christ. Certainly a violent act, and again in Acts 5 Peter deemed Ananias and Sapphira worthy of death for a minor act of lying, again a violent judgement. We see in Peter violence is used against both external enemies and internal enemies. Peter was therefore a carnal leader relying upon the emotion of fear to establish his authority. The consequence to Peter was that he was quickly replaced and eclipsed by Paul a man who used reason to lead. The Apostle Paul presents both sides of an argument and the leads the reader to a logical conclusion. I as a follower of Christ have outgrown the child like state of emotional leadership and have gone on to the mature state of reasoned leadership. I love God for his wisdom and have to reject the fear mongering leaders in the SCOC.
KF, yes, Christians ARE the children of God.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The billions who are not are called sinners and on their way to hell..
So are there any French or Spanish people or Chinese or South American non-sinners? Is it a SIN not to be Christian? Com'on now! Do you believe there's a god , watching his"children" live in a world full of sinners. That's not the way Fathers treat their children. This is why my children are no longer attending the abusive SCOC as their mother still does. They Did learn Truth. That the cult that their mother is in, is not in any way, the kind of life they intend to live. But the same can be said for GP and PP children You won't see them at "The Building" Cover-name for their "Shop of Horrors"
So if you are waiting for your Holy Father to change the world, you are as decieved as the doctrine of this cult. What Is a sin to many who are Concerned here, are the unreported cases of child abuse by parents and other members who know of that abuse.
Sin in the SCOC Just confess it so that they can use it against you.
Sin (child abuse) in the "real world" Go to Jail.
You can study your bible in Jail and await your savior amongst the other abusers of this cult.
It's time for Christians to act like adults instead of frightened, annonymous "Children of God"
If you know of the abuses yourself and have been silent, your are a very large part of conspiracy to protect the SCOC child abusers.
Are you afraid of the SCOC leaders or your own God? Every member should ask themselves that question.
NBC's Dateline show would likely be interested in exposing this cult as they have others. Remeber the show "To catch a predator"? They are Concerned more than those calling themselves so.
Those with the facts should reveal what they know? Otherwise you are with the rest of us. On our way to Hell.
Psychology will help you to overcome the abusive behaviors of the SCOC but it will not be able to answer any question about salvation or doctrine as psychology is medical and not theological. The first step in any cult indoctrination is ego destruction or ego death. Once a person self surrenders to the influence of the group all boundaries are removed and any sense of self is lost; once this is accomplished then the group's programming can begin. Programming is not only at the beginning but in fact is continuous through the entire time in the high control groups. Many persons in high control groups simply say to themselves that they are not responsible for their behaviors as they were just following orders but history shows this is not true as many of the Nazi's, Soviets's, and members of other totalist groups have been held accountable for their actions while in the groups. Deprogramming involves reversing the process of ego destruction and restoring a person's sense of self by making them think for themselves. One of the first questions a deprogrammer asks is "If God is love then why are you being taught to hate?" Then the cult members is asked about the groups doctrine and they usually respond with just one out of context scripture and then the deprogrammer will read the whole chapter and show the scripture has been taken out of context to fit the groups twisted doctrine. Post cult trauma also has to be dealt with as many will have emotional problems and not know why. In the SCOC I attended the teaching preacher would arouse feelings of fear, arouse feelings of obligation, arouse feelings of guilt, and I adopted this habit in my own mind and was constantly angry over tiny problems and finally I realized that I was following the example set of arousing feelings over small matters and not dealing reasonably. Read the book "let our children go" by Ted Patrick and Tom Dulack.
Just Shut up everyone
Why are you on here if you want people to shut up?
Anon 916 are you ok? This blog clearly struck something.
I have a feeling this is someone whose bubble about the SCOC has just been burst. Anon, yes it's tough to hear doubts about Merie's church. Hopefully in time you can see the real issues in Merie's organization. There's too many to ignore and it will eat at your conscience.
Anon 9:16. I’ll shut up when GP, PP, TC and KS along with all the preachers and teachers stop the oppression and lies that they are teaching.
What a emotional response, are you capable of reasoned thought? Does your leader do all of your thinking for you? Cults keep their slaves in an emotional frame of mind and the followers are incapable of thinking for themselves. I can just imagine leadership being reproved by my "like a Pharisee post" and have started murming about it to the brotherhood and now the churls are attacking. See leader I am a good follower, see how I attack on the blog and am silent about your hypocricies! Double standards are the norm not the exception. Their is a book that can really help you think for yourself, its called the Bible, you should try reading it sometime.
In the study of the Bible it is helpful to compare and contrast the different characters to get an understanding. Lets consider two wise men: Solomon and Christ and how they used the wisdom God gave them. Solomon used his wisdom for selfishness treating himself to the best life had to offer and Christ who used his wisdom to benefit everyone else. Does your spiritual leader personify Solomon or Christ? Who benefits from their position of authority, themselves or everyone else? By comparing your leaders behavior you will develop an understanding of just what kind of person they are on the inside.
Anon at 8:00 pm. Please learn how to use their and there. Then I can better respect your intellect.
Craig you're forgetting one more that needs to be named JS
Jeff Specht? Loves control and manipulation and don't get on his bad side, Jeff Specht? That one? He's WIERD.
What I wish that I had been taught as a babe in Christ was the chain metaphor. A chain is only strong as its weakest link. If you dont have any links in your chain you are weak. I sit down each day and write out one reason why I follow Gods commandments or one reason why I dont break Gods commandments. These little reasons are like links in a chain that in time make one mentally strong.
Anon 2:33 Portland’s only preacher still Lol MM is a manipulator as is his side kick teacher ST. Sitting with them supposedly getting counsel I witnessed first hand how they would attempt to manipulate my train of thought. Snakes
I look at the behavior of others in spiritual terms now. My teaching preacher did not like me studying my bible and greatly discouraged me from doing so through putting out teachings from the pulpit and through encouraging others to discouraging me from studying Gods word, even to the point that I went to a holiday meeting in Stanton and the federal employee, a teaching preacher in that congregation, walked up uninvited and started to discourage me from studying telling me "yes there is knowledge there but why would you want it?" In 1 Timothy 4:1-4 Paul tells Timothy that in the latter times some would depart from the faith… forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats, our spiritual meat is the word of God and I can now pinpoint when they had departed from the faith is when my teaching preacher started forbidding me from studying and just listen to him instead. The Catholic's forbid spiritual meat saying it is the priest's job to study and the lay people are to abstain from studying God's word, a spiritual application of forbidding to eat meat. I read of a spiritual table, spiritual meat, spiritual drink, and the encouragement to excell in the edifying of the body, which is to excell in the spiritual feeding of others. The account in Luke 16:19-31 of the rich man and Lazarus can be easily applied spiritually to the pharisee's and the Jew's. The pharisee's were spiritually rich but were spiritually churlls, so selfish the let the spiritually poor starve. Someone raised rich learns to hoard what they have as it gives them the feeling of superiority and power over others who have not, so rich children become selfish adults but the poor freely share what they have because they know the pain of hunger and feeling of want. My teaching preacher was a spiritual churll having knowledge and understanding but refusing to share it with us poor lowly Christians, in short we starved spiritually while he fared sumptuously on the understandings given to him from the evangelist. I had to seek out the spiritual meat of Christ on my own or face spiritual starvation.
Ezekiel 34:2-4
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
I meant to add that calling others names is a wrong approach as it allows them to claim persecution, as Paul told Timothy all that live godly shall suffer persecution. A better approach is to follow proverbs 25:21-22 where it says if thy enemy hunger feed him and in so doing though shall heap coals upon his head and the lord will reward thee. Feed the spiritually by sharing your understandings it galls them to have known Merie and have to be spiritually feed by a lowly apostate. Paul told Timothy that anyone that strives for the mastery is temparant in all things, master being the Jew's term for spiritual leaders. Temperate means you avoid extremes and excesses the leader is not harsh when questioned by followers, the behaviors that describe temperate are the exact same behaviors that describe lukewarm ask a "master" to explain the difference between a temperate leader and a lukewarm leader. Ask a master to explain Christ's admonishment not to give that which is holy to dogs yet Christ called the women who were not of the nation of Israel dogs and then helped them and see if they point out the difference between a stray dog and a vicious dogs like the ones mentioned in Psalms 22. Ask the masters that if there are different kinds of metaphorical dogs are there different kinds of spiritual whores like the one mentioned in proverbs 9 called foolishness. Ask the masters to point out the similarities and the differences between the four gospels, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, the four things thay are exceedingly small but exceedingly wise. See how capable the masters are in giving spiritual applications to carnal examples. Feed them don't mock them by calling them weird.
One last thing to consider is that David said in Psalms that he had never seen the righteous begging bread but it does happen, and when it does God gets annoyed,that is, he gets a little angry; and men die, and not just the wicked but the righteous too. In Luke 16:19-31 you could deduce that God said to the beggar you have suffered enough come home and to the rich man your time is up, go to hell, both the righteous and the wicked die when God gets just a little angry. If you have carnal food feed the poor, if you have spiritual food feed the poor, because God gets angry when the righteous go hungry.
Oops you named called as well calling one a spiritual churl. Read Matthew 23.
Don't care. I wish all the preachers and teachers names were on here. Many destroy other people's lives. That way when people are searching for answers online putting in different key words they can come up. JS doesn't care who he hurts and he's gonna claim persecution anyway. They all do. Yet they are the ones who use religion to persecute others. We know that's the truth!
Thank you for your indepth response Craig, I will be able to feed off of it for many weeks to come. Matthew 23, the chapter which describes the behaviors that identify hypocritical leaders is rich. Your hung many different fruits on that bare tree with your examples and understandings so that even simple minded people like me could understand your points. An example of an ignorant master being exposed is in John 3:10 when Christ asked Nicodemus are thou a master and knoweth not these things? I can tell you must have been a great master in the SCOC yourself with such rich sharing. You remind me of a lamp that does not shine, salt that has no taste, a farmer who does not sell his corn, pretty to look at on the outside but empty on the inside.
Anon 8:02 agree with the teachers and preachers being named. As well as Anon 8:09 being named.
Anon 8:09 funny. Are you also Anon 8:02? Do you know me? I think not. Just as a Merie cult member judging others even those they do not know. I know MM and ST in Portland. I know well how they operate. Just as snakes.
I would like to address the way this cult twists the word of God, turning it around to deceive innocent people. Im going to use KJV merely because that is the acceptable version to them, but if you would add to this post, feel free to use whatever version you desire to make a point.
Take 2 Peter 2 for example.Merie's cult uses these scripture to prove that ALL other religions are false.
Verse 1 : But there were false teachers among you, who PRIVILY shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Who is it that PRIVILY (secretly) bring in doctrine, keeping some rules away from babes until they feel they have them reeled in? also, in non-member classes they do not tell people what they really teach, yet claim to only teach the truth of God's word.
Deceit and lies!
Continuing with 2 Peter 2:1- damnable (subject to or worthy of divine condemnation., heinous, demonic..) heresies. False teachings are teachings that have been invented by man which cannot be proven by scripture. There are too many to name, but rules to sex within marriage, no attending movies in a theater, no facebook, no kids having cell phones, and mandatory attendance to all classes and worship.
By writing rules themselves they DENY the Lord that bought them. They make themselves gods by teaching that members MUST adhere to their rules to be accepted of God, or they will be condemned. Because of their obvious MAN-MADE teachings and the way they separate families -MANY have turned away from God and have ,indeed , spoken evil of Christianity. What they have been exposed to is NOT true christianity, yet in their confusion they would rather deny God.
Plato would like you. Plato complained that there was no one else to reason with and sought out relationships with others just to be able to share his reasoning, today they are called platonic relationships. Solomon said similar in Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 when he complained that one man among a thousand, he sought out others to reason with but only found one( himself). The study of the proverbs, and Matthew will develop subtlety of mind, that is the magnifying glass to see tiny differences in human behaviors. I realize that my first and most abusive teaching preacher was the problem, not the SCOC, not Merie, and not the scriptures. His behaviors are the same as a malignant narcissist, he did not like others to be happy and if he saw you smiling he would come over to you and say something discouraging, and as a narcissistic leader he would actively sabotage your faith, he is truly a tare. In the wheat field tares and wheat look similar but the tare which takes up more water and space but produces no good fruit choke out the good plants which produce good fruit. The examples given in scriptures are so true to life of human behavior that it is astonishing.
The four gospels are all similar
in that they have have Christ as the central character but they are different as they are also reflections of the personalities of the men who wrote them. The only gentile found faithful enough to write in the bible was Luke, a traveling companion of the apostle Paul who wrote the gospel of Luke and the book of acts as both having the same opening address to one "theophilus". The example of an uncircumcised gentile being counted worthy to write a book in the bible proves to me that myself being a gentile can be counted as worthy as any faithful jew. Both Matthew being a tax collector and Luke being a physician would have great attention to detail as their professions would require it and both have geanologies of Christ requiring detailed learning to be able to recite such a long list, Matthew being a Jew would have given the Hebrew names, Luke being a gentile would have given the latin names. Christians are similar in that they all shate a common belief but are also different as they have different backgrounds and different personalities, both similarities and differences can be used to glorify God.
It is a shame how far they twist the scriptures isolating themselves as the only true Christians. I regret to admit that I was right there teaching and practicing man-made teachings. Now I have to search the scriptures all over again leaving their lies out of it. They use Jeremiah 10 to say it teaches against Christmas. That is not at all what it is saying. It is teaching against idolatry. Go back and read it for yourself. And don't be afraid to get back into the bible after you escape from this cult. I do think Kevin's clean Bible challenge is a great idea- try a different version than the KJV.
Concerned outsider, exactly the reason I refer to the leaders and some preachers and teachers, especially MM in Portland as snakes. Manipulative, sneaky and deceiving. Add on liars as well. Just the teaching that Merie’s cult is the one and only true church is a lie. Points that Donna bring up of what they do not teach those that want to become a member is deceiving.
Concerned Outsider- You are apparently an outsider to try to deny this truly happens in Merie's 'church'. Or were you raised in the 'church', so you have been indoctrinated all your life and you cannot see the forrest for the trees? Why defend thier lies if you are, indeed, an 'outsider'?
I was not defending the church by any means and my comment may have not been complete enough and I apologize. Looking back and reading it again I can see why. I did not mean what you said was deceit and lies but the so called church is full of deceit and lies. The reason I know is because I have family in there and was referred to this blog by one who got out. Looking back I was in turned deceived so looking forward to the day it dissolves and the people who are still members see the light. I hope this clears the comment up as I enjoy your feedback.
Concerned. Outsider: Thanks for clearing that up. I just want to help others see their way out. Too many won’t listen to their own heart because they have been taught not to trust it, so I decided to address scripture to point out heresy.
You are welcome to message me on FB if I can help you in any way.
Donna yes I agree with your points. It is amazing what one can learn about so many scriptures if you search. I was having a conversation with a preacher and asked him what he thought about missing Sunday worship, say if your husband wanted to travel kinda far to see family and it caused you to miss it. Would he advise staying back and going against husband's wishes because wife felt it was Forsaking the assembly of the saints?
He said 1.) He would be very hesitant to advise a wife to go against her husband and not submit to him. And 2.) more importantly, the word "forsake" means to turn your back on. He said if I don't meet my wife one day that doesn't mean I am forsaking her.
Now you, put the word forsake in another context? It never means something so temporary as missing one class or one worship. When you forsake someone, you have completely turned your back on them.
Goodness I stood there with my jaw dropped at the simplicity of the meaning of the word FORSAKE. And there have been many many more times when my eyes have bee opened to how Merie's church has added rules via their judgments. The further and further I am from that place the more I realize how hoodwinked I was!
M. Long THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT! It never occurred to me to look up the meaning of forsake, and what a difference it makes to the exegesis of that scripture!
It never ceases to amaze me as to the simplicity of the truth 🙂
Martha Long- you brought up a good point about missing worship. I have often wondered how the early Christians would have been able to keep that 'commandment' every single week?
When my kids were little, being raised in 'Merie's 'church', I wasn't the the least disappointed when they came up 'sick'. I believe the ridiculous mandatory schedule caused many of us moms to love that handy little thermometer.
Now I am truly disappointed when I miss church for sickness but I don't have guilt hanging over me for my motives. Concerning missing 'worship' to enjoy family, or just life, I can safely say that MY PRAISES (wherever I happen to be) are far more filled with joy and gratitude more than they EVER were within the 'worship' services the entire time I was with Merie's "church".
And speaking of simplicity….
Merie's group is known for claiming that only one version of the bible is perfect and contains no errors. They claim that the King James Version fits that description.
To those who still believe that, I am going to let you in on a truth-you are being lied to.
The KJV of the bible is a beautiful version! But it is far from perfect, and it does contain errors in it's translation.
Original texts were inspired by God and are without error. But the same can't be said of later copies of the texts as well as translations. The translators and scribes were human, and even though zealous and perhaps honest, many allowed their religious biases to influence them.
Here are some glaring and HUGE mistakes in the KJV (BTW, did you know there have been three revisions since the first KJV was published in 1611? So, which one is the "perfect" one?)
1. Acts 12.4; the word Easter was inserted. In the original Greek text, the word was "pascha", which means Passover. In the New Testament, the word pasch is used 18 times and is translated correctly in the KJV in all those passages EXCEPT FOR ACTS 12.4.
2. Acts 14.12; Barnabas is called Jupiter and Paul is called Mercurius. The problem is, those are the names of Roman gods. The ORIGINAL Greek text list the names as Zeus and Hermes, Greek gods.
3. Matthew 27.50 and Matthew 28.19; the KJV says "Ghost" instead of spirit. In the original Greek text the word used is "pneuma" which means breath or spirit.
4. 1John 5.7-8; the latter part of verse 7 and the first part of verse 8 DID NOT APPEAR IN GREEK TEXTS FOR THE FIRST 1000 YEARS AFTER THE SCRIPTURES WERE COMPLETED! The words added are "in heaven; the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth." We can only speculate why the translators for the KJV added these in, but my guess would be to support the doctrine of the trinity.
These are just a few of the errors in the KJV. I'm not saying that we can't use the KJV, but I am saying it's not perfect. Merie's group is either in serious error to say it is perfect, or they are lying.
There is nothing wrong with using a version of the bible that is easier to understand. I doubt that Christ used such words as "sayeth" or "doeth" to people, he wanted to be understood. And it sure seemed as though people understood Him! He didn't hide his message with archaic language, though he did use stories to make his point!
and there is nothing wrong with using more than one version to check out scriptures!
Just some food for thought, 🙂
Debby, yes where I go it is common for our scriptures to be cross-checked with other translations as well as the original Greek or Hebrew. It helps the context and also yes it helps to have more modern language. Merie was so ridiculous and egotistical with her rules. If KJV were the only correct translation, I guess no other nations with different languages have hope since they can't read the King's English. There goes the Chinese, German, French, Russian translations, etc…
Interestingly, most Spanish speakers in Merie's church use the "Reina Valera" version of the Bible. Here's a little history of that:
In Spanish, that version would be the Reina-Valera version, which is based on a 1569 translation by Casiodoro de Reina and its 1602 revision by Cipriano de Valera. That version has been repeatedly revised (perhaps most importantly in 1960, which I believe may be the version that most commonly circulates in Latin America), but it's still considered the "Reina-Valera" bible.
And Luther translated the commonly used German Bible.
I've come to realize how ridiculous it was to ever believe that only the version I can read is going to get me to heaven. It's as if Christ didn't actually come to save the world. ��
M. Long: what amazed me most was to find out that THE CURRENT KJV that is being used is one of several revisions since 1611. Yet Merie's group says its the version that was printed in 1611, and never mention that's it's been revised. If it was perfect in 1611, why has it been revised?
I even wonder if the leaders of the group know it's not the original 1611 version? Interesting! Or, as Alice said, "curiouser and curiouser"!
Again, I am NOT saying that the KJV is not to be used. I AM saying that it is not perfect, just as any other translation is not perfect. That's because they've been written by men.
What I have come to realize is that it's ok! God didn't intend for us to do what Merie's group has done with the bible-and even some other religions as well. I will share more on that later, about the so called "Blueprint" that supposedly is in the bible.
Debby the group knows about the revisions. They just excuse them because they have to maintain yet another of Merie's lies that the KJV is the ONLY valid version of the Bible. Surely they can't admit now, 50 years later, that she-and they- have been stubbornly wrong for the last half-century?
God forbid it cause their followers to start thinking they just might be wrong on other major things. On top of that, it could cause them to actually understand on their own what they are reading. We can't have that!
Donna being that you seem to be familiar with the bible I was wondering about Luke 13:23 how the disciples asked Christ is there few that be saved and he seemed to answer in the affirmative but in Revelations 7:9 it says there would be a multitude that no man could number, so is it a few or is it unlimited?
Anonymous- I'm learning to become familiar with the Bible, although I am having to look at the scripture with new eyes and forget what I was taught by Merie's 'church'.
I looked at both of your scripture references in the KJV and NIV. Luke 13:23 one of the disciples ASKED Jesus, " ..are there few that be saved? " Jesus answered that MANY will seek to enter in and shall not be able. Does that SAY FEW shall be saved? Nope. It only says that MANY will seek to enter in and will not be able.
Revelations 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, CLOTHED WITH WHITE ROBES, and palms in their hands,….
Pretty amazing given the fact that Merie's 'church' does not believe that true Christians exist in any country but the United States ( aside from Acapulco and the few Americans with their husbands in the military overseas).
It doesn't take a Bible scholar to understand theses scriptures.
Donna let me bounce this off of your understandings: Revelations 20:1 mentions an angel coming down from heaven with a great chain to bind Satan, and in Mark 7:21-23 Christ taught that out of the heart cometh all different kinds of evil behaviors, now I see the heart as deep and difficult to understand much like a bottomless pit, and the behaviors that come out of the heart as the same behaviors attributed to Satan, and the great chain as a metaphor for the many commandments of our God. I see how the commandments bind the evil behaviors of the heart, so that as a person who learns and obeys each and every commandment, one at a time turns from an evil person into a good person. Is this your understanding or am I missing something?
I have spent the last almost three decades studying out Revelation, along with Dan 10 & 11. Going in depth with the scriptures and they teach nothing like what Merie taught and I had listened to a lot of her Revelation tapes.
In seeking to apply the many abstract principles taught in the scriptures to turn them into concrete behaviors I find that each understanding is unique to the person. As I struggle to learn how to control and direct ones desires the questions that arise are related to my struggles. I find therefore that the questions to be asked are not what do these abstract principles mean but rather how to apply these teachings to my life. Christ taught that if a man looketh upon a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery already is it also true that if a man looketh upon anothers possesions with envy he has committed covetousness already? Our behaviors start with our desires therefore if a man can control and direct his desires then he can control and direct his thoughts, behaviors, and his own life? Meries teachings were a reflection of her life and mind and as such do not apply to others universally as assumed by so many.
So according to your thoughts on control, what is your bottom line conclusion about the Stanton Churches of Christ?
Anon Jan 27 9:22-Your right on spot. In fact beautifully understood.
For anyone interested, Amazon Prime has the Gospel of John movie available. It is a word for word reenactment of the entire book of John. It's next on my list… Can't wait to watch this "translation".
Bottom line conclusion? I can only speak about the two congregations I was a part of, I don't know enough about any other congregations to make any judgement for or against them. In Proverbs 10:3 it says the Lords will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish and in the OT there are many examples of famine in different lands but the righteous had enough to eat; in the NT a spiritual application is with edification, the righteous are always edified even when there is a famine of God's words. The congregations I was apart of edification was rare, famine level, but for me in my personal studies I feast upon God's words and understandings on a daily basis. I have sought out other places to worship but found none edifying, I even made a trip to Boise last year but did not get an invitation to worship, not much to be found up there either. So today I do as wise men do and study daily and lay up or store knowledge for the day when I find sincere believers. I know the righteous will always exist here on the earth Proverbs 10:29 tells me so, I wait patiently for God to reveal them.
Just don’t go back. God will lead you to the right church. Be patient.
Though I have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside me and guiding me into the deeper things of God, and I did recieve this gift when I was baptized in the SCOC the congregation I was apart of went off and became very abusive physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I call it the dark church, the church of Satan, and encourage all others to avoid Phoenix as if their soul depended on it. I have a 22 year old daughter who is an avowed athiest due to the abuse she suffered herself and what she witnessed being done to her siblings by a woman who knew Merie. My daughter is twice the child of hell as the queen of the pharissees who abused her. There is no reason to go back to such an evil congregation, but I do miss the fellowship of the spirit where you could sit down and openly discuss the wonders of Christs love and wisdom, limited as it was.
To illustrate just how hostile both the Arizona congregations had become I give you this example: at the December meeting here in Phoenix around 2001 the evangelist gave a talk were three quarters of the way through a stray dog walked in and stood before the podium and looked up at the evangelist and the evangelist looked down and the dog and then abruptly ended his talk, the last man to speak, the teaching preacher from Prescott, gave one of his angry talks in which he said that if a man was not willing to leave then he would be removed by force! He did qualify his statements as to who he was talking about or what congregation he was refering to. So due to his ambiguity I thought he was threatening me, and I am sure several others thought he was referring to them as well. Only when I read of Anthonys physical removal did I understand who he was talking about. A general state of fear was generated by that mans vague threats. I thought you don't have to resort to physical force I will avoid that scene and stop coming on my own to prevent any physical violence in the church among church members for that would be a reproach upon God. Today I realize that the preacher from Prescott was just trying to prove to himself that he was superior but no one tempered or qualified his remarks, not the evangelist who was present, nor any other person in a position of authority, it was a genersl state of terror which he induced at that meeting.
Meant to say "read of Anthony's physical removal of his son".
In holding firm convictions about the congregation I was baptized into and subsequently left I consider Pauls letter to the Philippians in 1:15- how he illustrates how some preach Christ out of contention, that is they were setting up a rivalry against Paul and how he took it in stride saying he rejoiced that Christ was preached. Matthew 7:22 Christ speaks of his comming rejection of religious people who in reality were just working sin and certainly a church based upon rivalry would fall into this category. Can a dead church produce believers? In looking at the father of faith Abraham it says that he considered not the deadness of Sarah womb and did have children, so with Christ another man of faith, his bride, the church, certainly an old woman today can still produce children of faith and though I would not fellowship with a dead church I would accept fellowship with sincere believers a dead church produces as they glorify Christ to others.
Wat are you talking about, Anonymous, when you discuss 'Anthony's removal of his son'? I'm familiar with Vallejo, and I don't remember anything regarding 'Anthony's removal of his son' happening or being discussed?
Seriously, I read and reread Anon's post and am still mystified. So Unknown your not alone.
I am trying to move to AZ for my health. I grew up there as a child. I would love to go to that congregation to straighten things out. I was stopped in Tacoma with threat of withdrawl and spent a few years after that still not giving into the bad teaching, but I learned how to deal with this and would love to help relieve the members and expose what is truth.
Do it with out going back to the church of the devil. You may not be strong enough and get sucked back in. Live your life now in a church that will feed you . Never go back.
Anthony's removal of his son was an assumption based upon the individuals post that he was physically removed from a meeting by several men including his father. I assumed the man was telling the truth when he posted it but it could have been an exzaggeration on his part, or a delusion and the two incidents could be separate and not linked at all; I could be wrong in my assumptions.
That was from his son, which is me, and I'd appreciate it if you would stop discussing matters you don't understand at all. Until you understand my withdrawal, excommunication, and all the ideas involved, it would be wise to not be drawing conclusions on a matter you don't understand. You have already been guilty of wrongly assuming many things on here about many people. You assumed Gary Preman had perverse homosexual thoughts, since he said that breaking the bread twice or more could lead to the church accepting homosexuality. That is a conclusion completely unsupported by available information. You had racial conclusions, unsupported by facts. You support leftist racial organizations that hate Christianity, like the NAACP, which was founded by liberal, white Marxist Jews, and see nothing wrong with it. Wise people do not make comments without understanding, and they don't draw conclusions that are way off base. You continually do this, and it's rather tiresome to continually have to correct you. You've been doing it for years on here.
I have never assumed anything of anyone on here, and even when I came to conclusions that were in jest, like assuming you had gotten heat stroke in Arizona, I turned out to be right after all. There is a difference in an informed opinion and shotgun approaches, where one throws out hundreds of assumptions and hopes a few stick.
If you are curious about events, asking questions is always wise. Taking random data, not questioning completely, and coming up with fantastic conclusions is a good way to make a lot of people unhappy, and to ruin your own reputation at the same time.
Thank you for not clarifying your previous statements on being physically removed from a meeting, it confirms my belief you are under the delusion of narcissism. Your slanders have no effect upon me, as they come out of the evil heart of a malignant narcissist. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong as I apply the virtue of honesty to myself first and foremost. The arrogant, who lack self honesty, when they do wrong will not admit to their faults but instead will seek to blame someone or some thing else for their own wrongs. The arrogant in an attempt to uphold their own false image to themselves will blame their spouse for their own problems, also will blame their problems on a bad baptism, and will seek to discredit the Bible rather than admit and accept responsibility for their own behavior. Malignant narcissist such as yourself dear Ryan, will pounce on any percieved weakness in a vain attempt to feel superior. For me honest is not a weakness to hide from when attacked, but rather a strength and the first step in repentence when one does something wrong. As narcissist love attention I try and avoid giving them any by not mentioning them directly. I can't pray for someone as evil as the person you have become, but I do pity you, sad just sad.
It's nearly impossible to correct a person like you. We all have seen you numerous times say false things. You have never admitted it, and when called on it, you tell us we are the problem. Then, as this is the behavior of a narcissist, you call us narcissists. Exactly like today's liberals, project your problems on to others. In summary, find one time on here where I wrongly evil surmised about anyone else about anything. I did not do it, because I may suspect something, but I wait until I prove it. You've done it about too many people to count, and you haven't apologized once. You are just like the liberal news that does this daily. CNN, NPR, the Washington Compost, The New York Slimes, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, NBC, Huffington Post (The Huffy Puffy), Daily Beast, PBS, the San Francisco Chronicle, and the thousands of other lying news sources, who tell you what they want you to see, rarely admit fault, if ever, and then tell you you are the problem if you object to their continuous falsehoods. Honestly, do you ever feel shame, so you don't do something again. At this rate, you'll be uttering another falsehood evil surmising about someone on here in a few weeks, as is your habit.
If you are so honest, my friend, then how about imitating myself and others and introducing yourself by name? That would be a good start. Telling other people to be honest while commenting under anonymous is not exactly how to set a good example about honesty. And you've been told to do this repeatedly, but you repeatedly talk, and repeatedly spread your falsehoods, while telling other people they are proud if they correct you. LOL. That's exactly what Stanton has done to so many.
And now, like Stanton, you call me evil for daring to call out your repeated falsehoods. The Lord rebuke you. You obviously love to talk, now how about ensuring you do the work necessary to tell the truth, instead of being like a gossipy housewife, and spreading nonsensical rumors constantly?
As far as idolizing the evangelist everyone should realize he is just a man and not an object to be worshipped. As a man he is in need of reproof on a regular basis like the rest of humanity. In examining his behavior he has always displayed a love of money. His lesson so many years ago "how much of that money is for the brethren" regarding Bruce Gordon bonus of 25k for completing a construction job shows it. The evangelist smiles biggest when someone gives him a cash gift, like when Phoenix gave him an extra 2500.00 for a vehicle when he only asked for 1000.00 just because "they could" or when someone payed his legal expenses, or when his son's employer gave him a cash gift saying you don't have to pay it back because your worth it. Cash gifts make the evangelist happy and the smallest amount I have seen him accept is 2500.00 this shows me he has a love of money and a love of God. Paul the apostle said he had learned to be content whether abased, that is poor, or abounding that is rich, the evangelist when abased, that is poor, is unhappy and murmurs from the pulpit "I don't know how I am going to pay these bills". The proverbs teach in 11:25 that the liberal soul shall be made fat and an example of this is seen with Christ feeding thousands on different occasions and being repaid in followers of his teachings, the opposite is also true: Paul the apostle taught if a man does not work he should not eat and many were unhappy with his leadership and questioned his Apostleship. Both Christ and Paul the Apostle did the will of God, to be generous as a leader and to withhold as a leader. Many will be willing to be the generous and loved leader few would be willing to be the austere and hated leader but both are required by God and only those with moral courage like Paul will accept the position of austere leader.
As far as the deduction about heat stroke, a child could figure that a common problem in the desert is heat stroke. But as far as assigning psychological problems to a physical infirmity you are mixing salt water and fresh in your reasoning, clouding the truth with deception.(you are deceiving yourself and others into thinking your wise when your not.) Heat stroke has no lasting psychological effects after it's relief unlike some other diseases. Mixing salt water and fresh when reasoning seems like a good thing but ends in death. In my time in the SCOC we were pushed to physical exhaustion and told our rest is in heaven thus mixing physical rest with spiritual rest, a heresies put out by a merciless malignant narcissist who was the spiritual leader at the time. A babe ignorant of the scriptures would not catch this insidious false teaching much less be able to refute it. Maintaining boundaries is necessary for good understandings. Daniel maintianed his separation both carnally refusing to eat food supplied by his masters and asking for something more acceptable and also spiritually refusing to observe laws and ordinances against his beliefs, his separation made him cherished in the eyes of the rulers and God. Mixing or diluting through reasoning is a behavior seen with Satan's tempting if Eve in the garden. Your behavior puts you into the company or city of some dubious wise men.
Lynn MM, that would be awesome if you could go into Phoenix and have a voice. Last I heard DS is the preacher. It would be very interesting to hear you try to reason with him.
Yeah, I know DS. We have talked a few times. I even took him to lunch when he did a visit in Tacoma and we talked. When I was having a problem dealing with the leaders in Tacoma I contacted him first only to have "the preacher from the south" and his wife excuse everything I said and told me that DS would believe them over me as they have more status.
Ever since the "the preacher from the south" moved to Tacoma I had been a voice against a lot of what he brought. They eventually got most of the congregation to treat me like I was withdrawn from.
We are still looking into moving to AZ. One of my daughters is contemplating moving there and taking me and my wife with her.
If God wills, I pray that the doors will open.
Last I heard, Craig, DS moved back to Sacramento, and is there currently.
Leaders are identified by their behaviors for example Mark 4:35-41 gives an account of Christ and his disciples taking a journey on a ship and hit rough weather. The disciples feared for their lives but Christ calmed the seas; Christ was fearless. Many of the demons cried out in fear at the sight of Christ, but Satan went right up to Christ and tempted him, Satan was fearless. Leaders have to display fearless to lead others, even when the are fearful on the inside themselves. One who desires to lead must identify their strengths and build upon them, but of equal importance in leadership one must identify their weakness and protect and if possible strengthen them. If going to Phoenix realize you will be attacked upon any and all weaknesses and you will have to discredit the attacks and dismiss them as petty. If you mispronounce a word or misspell a word you will be attacked for lack of intelligence, be prepared to discredit and dismiss this petty attack. If you misquote a scripture you will be attacked, be ready to refute it. If you are on time for bible class you will be attacked for being almost late, be ready to counter attack. Anyone who reproves, leads. Leaders must be ready to refute attacks against their weaknesses.
Ummm quick question? Why do you say that is what will happen? Are you attending the Phoenix congregation now ?
I dont understand how people can make statements like that unless they are there now and can give real examples this happening . Not things done in the past by people who are not even teaching any longer .
Anon Feb 4, 10:48AM
It still happening..I have siblings still in the cult & here their cries every time we see each other. They too are counting the days until they are free of this!!