“He is risen.” This often repeated phrase is the Christian community’s traditional greeting on what people call “Easter.” Stanton typically distances itself from any holiday observances, even secular ones like Mother’s Day. In doing this, they take a page out of the doctrines of other sects like Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I unfortunately carried these feelings long into adulthood, thinking (because it was what I had been told) that people who celebrate Easter just care about the Easter bunny. But it’s simply not true. Yes, there are some secularized people who are “Christians” in name only, and there will always be those. But that is not the end of the story.
So is it really against scripture to observe this or any other holiday in our American or Christian culture? Not hardly. Not when you properly understand this teaching from Paul. Let’s start at the beginning of Romans 14:
“Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.” Romans 14:1-4
Then we get to the passage in question:
“One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.” Romans 14:5-6 (NIV)
There are all kinds of bad arguments used to divert attention from Paul’s clear teaching on this. “Paul was only referring to Jewish holidays.” Or “The stronger brother would not celebrate the holiday.”
Nonsense. Paul’s examples include eating meat offered to idols, celebrating holidays for the Lord, and refraining from celebrating holidays for the Lord. His only verdict on any of these things is “it doesn’t matter…do what leads to peace.”
“Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.” Romans 14:19
But…but…but…
But there are no buts in Paul’s teachings on this. I should not be teaching you to observe Easter or any other holiday. Nor should I be teaching you that you can’t. I should not be teaching you that you should eat meat offered to idols. But neither should I be teaching that you can’t.
“Come on people,” Paul is saying. “Accept one another on the same basis that Christ accepted you.”
“Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.” Romans 15:7
No one was accepted by Christ because of our perfect understanding of scripture, or holidays, or any other subject beside the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the forgiveness we obtain at the cross. That is the Gospel; the Good News. That’s the basis on which the first converts came to Christ on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, and therefor that’s the basis of our relationship with Christ. It’s upon that same basis that Paul instructs us to accept our brother. This used to be the call of the Stone-Campbell Movement. Oh, how far away from those principles we’ve come.
Kevin, concerning the holidays- Stanton keeps birthdays and anniversaries- if they are going to ban holidays then where are scriptures to support celebrating birthdays? I do not believe there is anything wrong with celebrating birthdays, I just think it shows how they pick and choose what they want to do. I think it’s interesting how they twist Jeremiah 10 to teach it is opposing Christmas!
Yes. And believe me, I used those verses to condemn Christmas as well. So I’m not judging, just saying. 🙂
Their criteria on holidays had to do with if it was a “religious” holiday. Then they had to go research the roots of all holidays and make a judgement if it was “religious” or not. Someone discovered a “religious” connection for Mother’s Day, so that was out. Not sure if it still is.
For many years, I took my mom at her word that she didn’t celebrate Mother’s Day and intentionally didn’t give her a card—she would never want me to get her a Christmas card, right? But then I noticed she was bragging about one of the Mother’s Day cards she got from one of my sisters.
So after that—I acknowledged Mother’s Day. I assume it’s one of those things she either doesn’t agree on, but can’t say anything for fear of being thought of as less spiritual, or they’ve changed their teaching on that now.
Mother’s day is still not celebrated, at least not in the open. It sounds like your mom doesn’t conform to that particular man-made doctrine which is nice to hear. The only two days celebrated openly are birthdays and anniversaries.
I believe they did this in two fold. One that they are man made observations, carnal, and the other that some are religious based, such as either started by the Catholics and/or started as a “religious” holiday.
I won’t celebrate Christmas because I believe it is an nonreligious holiday with Christ’s name attached to it. It’s all about the getting of merchandise.
I won’t celebrate Easter as it is another man made day attaching God’s name to it.
I won’t celebrate mother’s’father’s day, Valentine’s day, or the like as I believe in spontaneity and not a calendar telling me when to love and/or show appreciation.
Halloween and 4th of July, use your own conscience.
Birthday’s and anniversaries are up to individuals and if we esteem one day above another it is between us and God.
1) The charge of “man-made holidays” doesn’t fly, because that is not prohibited by scripture. If I want to create a day called Love and Grace Day, there’s no problem with that in the Bible. The only problem would be if I bound that on other people and required them to keep this holiday—or if I lied to people and told them that it was a holiday required by scripture to observe. But me alone honoring Love and Grace Day and inviting others into that does not violate any NT teaching; particularly when you look at Romans 14 and 15 more deeply.
2) Forcing ourselves to label something “religious” or “non-religious” is a path fraught with legalism. You’d literally have to argue your points like a lawyer to decide this, and it would be based on a standard of our own making. The truth is, I don’t consider myself a “religious” person. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. That is all. I still don’t keep Christmas or Easter, but I no longer judge those who do, or think of them as less spiritually minded. Because Paul specifically allows us to honor certain days above another “to the Lord.”
3) As far as the pagan roots of a holiday, I also don’t think we need to worry about those kinds of things *as long as* we’re not honoring the pagan “gods” others are honoring. And most of the Christian community who celebrate Christmas and Easter have no thought in mind of ancient pagan similarities. If they are doing it to honor Christ, that’s between them and God, and fits easily into Paul’s teachings in Romans 14 and 15…not unlike a person eating meat from the marketplace that had once been offered to idols (1 Corinthians 8)
4) As for spontaneity, I agree in principle that spontaneity is better than being forced by the calendar to honor someone or something. Yet human nature is such that a calendar helps us remember to do it. I remember Jesus’ resurrection every Sunday. But if people want to pick one day out of the year to honor this event, and invite non-believing family members to church to hear about Jesus, I’m not going to argue with that.
And that’s between you and God to believe that.
Exactly. Just as it’s between you and God if you believe the opposite.
Kevin, I would like to add to what you were saying above when you were taking about the
pagan roots” of a holiday.
When i was in the group, I found it fascinating how that they would go on and on about the pagan roots of holidays, but think nothing of allowing their children to play “ring-around-the-rosy”. When I spoke to “older” teachers about it, I found that while they knew the superstitious back ground to the song, they thought it ok for the children to play and sing it because no one believes those things anymore.
Yet, at the same time, we were not allowed to say “Gesundheit” (which means Good Health) if someone sneezed. How many people today believe that when we sneeze, an evil spirit can enter into us unless we say Bless you! or Gesundheit? No one, that I know of. But it was still forbidden to say!
What it showed me is that even the older teachers don’t understand their rules, they just make them up and follow them. And teach others that they have to follow them. Just some food for thought
Very good points. Thanks, Debby. Yes, there are a LOT of unbiblical influences on our society and daily life, many of which have no spiritual significance. Is God really angry with us if we say “Gesundheit” or even “bless you” after someone sneezes? It’s ridiculous.
Well, when America was founded, few, if anyone celebrated Easter or Christmas, because that time period understood history and the Bible far better than we do. Our day and age is full of conceited, arrogant, proud, and smug types, deceived by propaganda, who discard the wisdom and virtue of the past, claiming that we are the height of human wisdom. Our nation is on the verge of being destroyed because of these types.
Let us be honest. Laws are controlled by politicians, politicians are controlled by voters, voters are controlled by the schools and media, and the schools and media are controlled by wealthy, mostly Democrat, plutocrats, who largely HATE Christianity. Yet, Christians religiously rely on our media and schools for their news and views.
These aforementioned types that will come on here, anonymously, nearly always, and viciously attack those who ‘hurt their feelings’. They love being lied to by modern pastors, television, Hollyweird, and our schools, nearly every single day, but they are absolutely outraged by someone telling them the truth.
‘But, Monte, shouldn’t you be ‘more loving’ in your approach’? What’s not loving about chastisement that makes chaste? It sounds pretty hateful to not say the truth that can free and liberate people, whether they like it or not. People don’t always love liberty and freedom. The Jews hated Moses at first and wouldn’t listen to him. Immediately when they got out of Egypt they were crying and whining for the slavery they had back in Egypt. They complained nearly every step of the way through the 40 years in the wilderness, and that is why God destroyed every last one of them except for Joshua and Caleb, who alone entered the Promised Land. Many on here can profit from this example. We are fast becoming slaves in America, and if you consider the taxes and regulations, particularly in Democrats states, we already are slaves.
Now how is it that the Puritans, who knew the Bible far better than we, rejected Christmas and Easter? Well, it was because they knew it was folly and foolishness, and not worthy of a Christians attention, much less their devotion.
All of this permissiveness is simply leading to a weak church and culture, that is ripe to be conquered and destroyed. No organization can thrive without discipline, and if discipline is not in accord with reason and logic, it is tyranny, which is what most object to about Stanton.
People don’t need leaders coddling and cajoling them. They need to be told the truth, because without it they will die. 1 Corinthians 13 talks about Love, and it says it ‘rejoices in the truth’. It does not rejoice in falsehood and iniquity. It suffers long and is kind, and IS NOT EASILY PROVOKED. This is a very important statement, because love is definitely provoked by what angers God and harms individuals and nations. Not to be provoked is being lukewarm and hateful. One of the supreme forms of hatred is ignoring and being indifferent. Yet, this is what is promoted by today’s lamestream church.
Love does not vaunt itself, and that means it certainly does not vaunt ideas that God never sanctioned, for to do so would be to exalt the self over God. It’s interesting that you completely did not mention, Kevin, the nearly total pagan roots of Christmas and Easter, and you object more to the church opposing these pagan holidays, than you do to modern Christians keeping them. That is very objectionable. A man stands up for right, no matter what.
Love does not seek it’s own. That means, it does not seek ways that God has nothing to do with, and it certainly does not promote these, while neglecting the issues in the church that do need addressing. The church has a massive pornography problem, a massive fornication, adultery, and other problems. Those who have experienced these ought to know most how damaging and harmful these are. Further, science, the medical industry, and many of the churches are saying that masturbation, contraception, and worse, homosexuality and abortion, are perfectly fine.
America needs those to stand up to oppose evil strongly, and to not back down. God’s law will never change.
Stone and Campbell would have never dreamed of celebrating Christmas or Easter, and to have their movement used to justify accepting contemporary erroneous ideas is unjust to them and to any who engage in doing this.
Who is on the Lord’s side?
We know that Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Christ and the Easter Bunny has nothing to do with his resurrection either. Christmas – there are atheists and non Christians who celebrate it because it is all about the getting and giving of gifts, which they ignore most of the rest of the year.
I judge no man for what he chooses to follow or allow after the fashion of days esteemed, but I, for one will not touch “religious” holidays.
Monte and Lynn, do you celebrate birthdays and if so, do you allow yourself to have candles on a cake? I’m curious because the traditional birthday celebration with candles on a cake has pagan roots.
Sophistry, ACITK. It is simple to take any argument, throw in specious reasoning, and dissuade the simple. Harder to learn the roots, and proceed. Personally, birthdays mean little to me.
So, your reasoning is that if you celebrate birthdays, then you shouldn’t have a problem with Easter and Christmas. Where is your proof that birthdays have pagan roots?
I’ve never seriously considered birthdays and their significance. Celebrating birthday’s seems more like an act of courtesy, and selflessness. Of course, you’ll say Christmas and Easter seem that way too, except they were originally debauched paeans to idols.
Let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater on this one. The keeping and celebrating of Christmas and Easter in their modern-day incarnations has as much relevance to the observance of ancient Pagan celebrations and rituals as the modern observance of Valentine’s Day to ancient ritual sacrifice. Today, the observance of Christmas and Easter, while excessively commercialized, has more to do with getting families together under the pretense of something spiritual, and in that regard, it is a good thing.
Watch some of the fights from Black Fridays over objects that have nothing to do with spirituality. Christmas has more to do with greed. Families can get together any time of the year. It seems that people allow dates on the calendar dictate to them when to show love and respect towards others.
Lynn, days off from work has a lot to do why families get together on these different days. Religious or not. Merie’s cult takes advantage of these days off from work as well for their various meetings.
I agree, Craig, I buy food that is on sale and take advantage of the days off as well. One place I worked gave away a turkey around Thanksgiving and took it gladly as it was food for the family.
I am still apprehensive at supporting the celebrating religious holidays that really don’t support nor were condoned by God. We can do with the days as we wish, but when it comes to putting his name on it is different.
Lynn, what do you think about celebrating a holiday in a non-religious way such as a family gift exchange at Christmas time?
There should be nothing wrong with that. Whatever you decide to do with your family is up to you. Like I said, when a non instituted day, by God, is instituted by man with God’s name on it is what I don’t agree with. God’s name isn’t on personal birthdays, anniversaries, Halloween (even though it celebrates Samhain, the day of the dead, and Wiccan celebration), Independence Day, and all of the other celebrated calendar days. These days it is up to your conscience
We aren’t throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is nothing worth preserving about Christmas and Easter. Stanton has it correct. The weekly Lords Supper is a fitting memorial for the birth and resurrection of Christ. Anything beyond this is not in scripture, and these two have pagan roots.
Lynn has it very correct, as do you, to an extent, ST, Christmas is very commercialized. It has nothing to do with spirituality. To say my love for someone has anything to do with a ritual of buying things for them at a certain time of the year is perfect nonsense. If we judge Jesus on that standard, he didn’t love us, because he didn’t buy folks gifts. Absurd.
Last I checked, most people have Saturday’s and Sunday’s off. We have 168 hours in a week. If people aren’t spending time with their families it is because of a lack of time management. Their priorities are off. Most people laze away Christmas and Easter doing things totally unrelated to family. Watching hellivision, sports, college bowl games, the NFL, the NBA, and other assorted commercial pursuits are popular.
Prove all things, hold fast to that which is true.
This is the beauty of liberty and freedom under God as Christians. You, Montesquieu, and your household, may hold to you convictions and conscience as you see fit, and whatever that may entail. And I, or Donna, or Kevin, or anyone on here, has the liberty to do the same, per our convictions and consciences. And based on such, no individual who exercises their liberty within Christ, according to their conscience, is sinning, no matter how many decorations I put on the Christmas tree in my home, or the lights and inflatable reindeer I put up on the outside. I am not trying to trivialize any of this, either; on the contrary, this discussion/debate/conversation encapsulates and illustrates the very essence and beauty of our New Testament freedom, and is reason to rejoice!
Well said.
Monte – Still looking for the specious reasoning in my thoughts on Romans 14 and 15, and 1 Corinthians 8. Can you point it out to me?
No Monte, that’s not my reasoning. Why don’t you ask for my reasoning instead of telling me what it is. My reasoning is as follows… if you have chosen to not participate in Christmas and Easter because of their pagan roots, why would you allow yourself to blow out candles on a Birthday cake since the practice has pagan roots? I’m not asking how important your birthday is to you, I am asking about the birthday candle tradition. You might not have had candles on a birthday cake in a number of years because of your age or circumstances (I have no idea) but would you participate if the situation arose?
Straw man, as I am not a big fan of birthdays anyways. I neither go out of my way to have mine celebrated, nor do I go out of my way to celebrate others. Specious and sophistic arguments.
You assume birthdays are of importance and relevant to my experience, and they are not. Next time, ask.
You have not answered my question Monte.
You ask the question assuming I give birthdays the credence many give Christmas and Easter. Your underlying assumption is in error, therefore your question is invalid. Kind of like the Pharisees, always asking questions, not understanding their hearts.
We have quite a few like that on here.
Comparing birthdays to Christmas and Easter is Sophism and a straw man logical fallacy, as the former two have religious connotations, and the latter is nothing but a celebration of one’s aging. Clear distinction which you refuse to recognize in a desperate attempt to defend the former two.
Montesquieu, where did PIMO say he was defending the “former two?”
Montesquieu, I never assumed, written or otherwise, that you give birthdays the credence that many give to Christmas and Easter.
I am asking you about birthday candles on a birthday cake… the tradition has pagan roots. Why are you against Christmas and Easter because of their pagan roots and not against candles on a birthday cake which also has pagan roots?
The following is a quote of an earlier comment you wrote-
‘It’s interesting that you completely did not mention, Kevin, the nearly total pagan roots of Christmas and Easter, and you object more to the church opposing these pagan holidays, than you do to modern Christians keeping them.’
I don’t celebrate my birthdays. A lot of things have pagan roots, but pagan birthdays don’t have God’s name on them.
Let’s remember people that these are opinions on the holidays! These are the areas that I DO decide for MYSELF (wow! I have that freedom!) whether , or not, I am going to keep some of the traditions the world observes. Because my family is so big, we get together after the first of the year to play games and eat and enjoy the kids. We play the saran-wrap prize ball game. At my church,people celebrate to varying degrees based on their convictions or traditions, but my church does not lay out rules for celebrating holidays. Anyone else done with being OPPRESSED and LIED to?!?!
Jeremiah 10 is teaching against idolatry – NOT Christmas.
Not sure, but it appears my last comment was deleted. Would like an explanation if that is so.
It would be really funny if this site criticizes Stanton for withdrawal, and then silences comments they don’t like. LOL. No irony there.
Free Speech in America was designed so that IDEAS YOU DON’T LIKE TO HEAR can still be expressed. Because the Founders understood Stanton, the Democrat party, Communism, and the many on here, who HATE to hear sensible ideas that make them uncomfortable. They understood these busy bodies will get a few demagogues, and try to gang up on unpopular ideas to silence dissent. They understood, that doing this destroys societies. The Greeks silenced Socrates, and destroyed themselves.
It’s interesting all the Campbell and Stone quotes on not persecuting opposing opinions are all no longer displayed for reading view on the side. Wonder why that is?
Anyhow, Donna, it’s not just Stanton that knows Christmas is foolish to celebrate and every church with any wisdom ought to teach against it. Anyone who thoroughly researches it, understands this. Not sure why superficial opinions are being defended and celebrated.
http://hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm
It would be great if you gave the benefit of the doubt instead of starting a friendly fire shootout. 😉
No, you weren’t being censored, your post was automatically sent to a moderation queue because it had a link in it. This is to reduce spam from Viagra pushers, etc. I have had to spend some time getting other projects finished up for clients, and was out of town for a few days, so I didn’t see the email alert.
I said I was unsure, however, I could have been less accusatory. It turns out my conjectures were in error, which isn’t the first time, nor will it be the last. But, I made sure to paint them as theories, not facts.
Thank you, Kevin, for clarifying. I think it’s reasonable to suspect something fishy when one is under criticism, and one’s posts are missing.
While I have no problem stating reasonable suspicions, and trying to confirm them before stating they are errors, I do not conclude on any surmises without firm proof.
Monte – to further respond to your accusations in the above post, the Campbell and Stone quotes are still there, and I even added more quotes. They are just randomly displayed one at a time. Every page refresh will display a random quote from each of those categories (Gary, Merie, Campbell, Stone). This was just to save space and change things up a little. Where I have a single page of quotes, I have provided a link to read more. In the case of the Stone-Campbell quotes, I don’t yet have a single page for that, but I will at some point.
Chill out, friend! 😉
Thank you for clarifying further, Kevin. Was curious about that. It did not seem to add up, and it appears, that my initial conjectures were in error.
Donna, well said. I had similar thoughts. Montesquieu, my four children work on Saturdays. With out of town/state family every year you know when the certain holidays take place. Just as the cult uses those days to plan for their functions it makes sense for families to do the same.
Yes. And back when I was hardcore against celebrating “religious” holidays, I eventually found myself being forced to argue that I could honor Jesus on any day of the year *except* Christmas, because that one day had pagan roots. That just illustrated to me the ridiculousness of my own position.
The point of Romans 14 and 15, and 1 Corinthians 8 is that we are Christians living in a pagan world. We can be in this world, while not being of it. Paul’s instruction is to simply not honor the pagan things that bother your conscience. Period. It’s really pretty simple.
Very sad but your choice.
Monte, you said “It’s interesting that you completely did not mention, Kevin, the nearly total pagan roots of Christmas and Easter….”
I actually did address that with my reference to meat offered to idols, and addressed it even further in a comment. Believe me, I was a hardcore anti-holiday Pharisee when I was your age. I had pages and pages of studies and research on this topic that I tried to force down everyone’s throat. I feel like I’m talking to a younger me. Lol
Let’s look at the eating of meat offered to idols in more depth. Meat in the extremely pagan culture of the first century would be sacrificed to the gods, then sold in the marketplace. Some early Christians thought it was wrong to eat that meat because of its “pagan roots.” Paul gently corrects their thinking here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+8&version=NIV
This is exactly like celebrating a Christian holiday that may or may not have had some pagan history associated with it in the past. The days of our week have pagan history associated with them, but we don’t rename them to keep ourselves pure of “pagan roots.” How many of you have eat at Asian restaurants that have a little Buddha in the corner, or a big Buddha right when you walk in? Is it wrong to eat there? Of course not.
By the time everyone takes their reasoning as to why they do not celebrate holidays they take the joy out of family get togethers. It was always a sore spot to my husband and I why our family had to be so different . So many times we were alone on the holidays because they all had to be in church or meetings. It was something we never understood so had to accept it as to not cause division.
At my age we treasure every celebration we can with family and or friends. Life is short folks so why not celebrate when we can. I have a totally different way of thinking then most of you as I was raised in a loving home who celebrated holidays with family and also celebrated most holidays all my life. ( My church background being Nazarene and Church of God. ). By reading the blog I am understanding the past 20 years a little better but also makes me sad in many respects. Jo
The Christians in America over 200 years ago, were not hard core Pharisees, and they rarely, if ever celebrated Christmas or Easter. They had a far better moral society than today, all things considered. Their main error was they did not understand all races had the same intellectual potential, and they can easily be forgiven for that, by any who aren’t brainwashed by the Marxist media and schools, who will be busy brainwashing at least 10 million Americans today. It is a straw man logical fallacy to equate Pharisaism with not celebrating Easter and Christmas, two holidays founded upon paganism. Pharisaism is the keeping of the ceremonial law. There were 3 forms of law, moral (never changes), ceremonial (Nailed to the cross with Christ), and the dietary law (still wise to keep it, though not mandatory.
It was this form of the law that was the huge point that led to your mother’s withdrawal decades ago. Your mother’s ideas were right, but few in Stanton had the discipline to follow them). Christmas and Easter are violations of the moral law, as no tradition begun by pagans can ever be accepted by God. This is no different from Cain and Abel. Cain had his way of sacrificing to God, giving God what felt good to him, and what was easy for him to offer, his garden. Abel gave God of what God was pleased with. We see, Cain was rejected, and Abel was accepted, and Cain, instead of repenting, took out his rejection on Abel. Same thing going on today. Those whose Christmas and Easter celebrations are rejected by God, hate those of us who refuse to participate in holidays founded upon idol worship, and spread disinformation that we are a bunch of Pharisees.
Just because people don’t want to hear the truth, does not change that it’s the truth. I had many in my family, and friends, tell me they didn’t want to be preached too, and that it was being shoved down their throat. Meanwhile, they had no problems getting tattoos, partying, fornicating, smoking weed, and other vices. So we see, error is no fan of truth.
As Billy Sunday said, I will quote again, ”The reason you don’t like the Bible, you old sinner, is because it knows all about you.’
Along with ridiculous advocating for holidays, the Christian church is full of disinformation on racism. We have tens of millions of Christians in America brainwashed by China’s propaganda that America is racist, and our form of slavery was the worst in human history, and that minorities have it particularly hard in America today. This has cost me many friendships, as too many men, most with very little intellectual pursuits in their young years, are easily seduced by the siren call of the Marxist disinformation. Their he-motions cloud their reason. As for me, I’ll never stop telling the truth because someone’s offended by it. If people aren’t offended by what a Christian says, rooted in the Bible, then that Christian likely isn’t telling the truth. Watering the truth down to tickle the ears of the hearers is not a trait you ever see a Godly leader engaging in in the Bible. One has to admire that Stanton at least isn’t cowardly about telling the truth just because a lot of people don’t want to hear it, and that is something they ought to be highly commended on.
In the 1 Corinthians passage you quoted, Paul is saying that it is best he does not eat meat, to not offend those who knew better, which is the same as saying not to celebrate Christmas or Easter. Same lesson applies to alcohol.
Days of the week and incidental appearances of Buddha are not the same as families and churches celebrating holidays predicated on pagan traditions, that are accepted by the mainstream, corrupt culture. Christians in Rome stood out because they refused to go along with the worship of heathen Gods. That ought to be an example we profit from today.
The only thing that goes along with the flow is a dead fish. We aren’t called to be dead fishes in the church.
Monte, you said: “In the 1 Corinthians passage you quoted, Paul is saying that it is best he does not eat meat, to not offend those who knew better, which is the same as saying not to celebrate Christmas or Easter. Same lesson applies to alcohol.”
Paul is absolutely not saying it’s best to eat meat as a broad statement. He’s saying that *IF* I know that me eating meat offered to idols is *GOING TO* cause someone to sin by tempting them to honor the pagan God they used to worship, then I shouldn’t eat meat (it’s presumed to be in front of them in a way that will cause them to sin). What this is NOT saying is to avoid any and every behavior that even one other person finds offensive. And if you had thought this through a little more, I think you’d agree with me.
For example, getting engrossed in local, region, and national politics is flat-out wrong for those in Stanton. But you do it. You speak publicly about political issues, you write your blog, etc. Are you doing something that someone in Stanton doesn’t like? You consider them to be “better” than mainstream Christian churches. So shouldn’t you be avoiding politics for fear of causing “one of these little ones” to stray? I didn’t think so.
You said: “Days of the week and incidental appearances of Buddha are not the same as families and churches celebrating holidays predicated on pagan traditions, that are accepted by the mainstream, corrupt culture.”
That’s just an assertion. Eating in a Buddhist establishment with a Buddha statue in the corner with a food offering in front of it is almost identical, philosophically, to the first century practice of eating food offered to idols in the marketplace. This is the problem with legalistic thinking…it becomes completely arbitrary.
I’m focused on paying bills right now, but the short reply is that I spend exactly zero time “celebrating” Easter or Christmas. My family does nothing to “celebrate” them, whatever that words means to each individual person. I’ve simply come to recognize the lack of Biblical authority for suggesting they are wrong—any more so than eating food at a Buddhist-owned restaurant, or choosing to honor moms on a specific day of the year.
However, while celebrating these holidays is not engaged in by the wise, the message of ‘He is risen’ is very relevant to today.
Stanton believes they can determine who can rise, and who cannot, which was the central contention between Christ and the Jews. The Jews believed the Gentiles were all a bunch of unclean heathens, who had no hope, and no potential. Christ thought differently. Also, if you sinned, the Jews wrote you off, and even would stone you for more serious sins, i.e. the woman caught in adultery.
Stanton does this too. They feel no remorse, no pity, and no mercy for the erring who seek to repent and return to God. For in Stanton’s mind, they alone can determine who is righteous and has hope, and who is hopeless. Despite the fact they have been wrong about this multiple times, they stubbornly proceed. It doesn’t matter to them that the New Testament is absolutely full of Christ healing the physically sick, and those who were so spiritually sick they even had devils. It doesn’t matter to them that Christ said his Word has the power to do this and more.
However, if you seek to return to God, and determine to do so, no matter what the Bible says, and to simply accept what Stanton’s teachers say, you can find abundant mercy and pardon. You see, Stanton’s teachers have perverted the Bible into a weapon to uphold their ego. They really could care less what it says, as long as it satisfies their desperate longing for admiration and power. And if anyone tells them they are wrong, they look upon that person as a blasphemer of God himself. But, the Word was designed to lead the erring to the right, not to flatter the ego’s of the proud. And thus, Stanton is stuck, and cannot extricate itself without humbling itself and admitting, that those who have disagreed with Stanton, though perfect none are, aren’t all wrong. Judging on Stanton’s habits, this is extremely unlikely. Like the Prodigal Son’s older brother, the Stanton leaders cannot bear to think sinners will be celebrated more than them.
The entire purpose of the Bible was to lead the erring back to the right, and to inform the world of truth. But, Stanton’s massive regulations discourage repentance. By loading those who disagree with teachers with expectations of massive and enormous confessions, they virtually assure that they will get rid of them, warning every other member of Stanton, that if you ever cross a teacher, you too will be heartlessly banished.
While they preach on love, they practice hatred. For it is the blackest hatred to use the sinful pasts (we all have one) of those seeking to return to God against them, and to refuse them the hope of salvation and redemption promised to all.
Stanton even uses the natural affections of those who have been unjustly punished against them. For, if the person who was punished loves the family and friends they have been separated from, and despite the recognition that the teachers are erring, still try to return, and every time are met with Stanton’s typical stonewalling, where they drag out the process, and confront you with all kinds of obstacles to make it as difficult as possible to return, letting you know in the process that they aren’t particularly enthused at the thought of your return, Stanton will respond to this by identifying the person as unstable. “They can’t make up their mind”, will likely be the diagnosis of Stanton. Natural human affection dictates humans try to restore the relationships they have with those they love and care for that were rudely interrupted by teachers who hate to be disagreed with.
When you build on a foundation that is flawed, your entire structure cannot long endure, and Stanton has built on a very unstable foundation. They claim it is the Bible, but it clearly is not, as Merie’s dictates departed from scripture quite often, especially in the area of women not teaching.
Stanton is now tottering along, and continuing to add unjust teachings to Merie’s initial unscriptural teaching that women have the right to teach men. For, if your initial teacher departed from the scriptures, are not all teachers who follow her naturally authorized to do so as well? If she made up arbitrary rules, then what is wrong with Stanton teachers of today making them up too?
Last night, I attended a meeting on implicit bias, racism, and police brutality in Vallejo. It was full of people who Stanton would deem reprobates. A transgender spoke, as did a blatant Marxist and a homosexual. The meeting was held in a church, which shows you the state of the church. Of course, these lawless types have big problems with law enforcement, not realizing the greatest threat to them are their own sins, not the police. Of course, that is true of us all. It was striking that the meeting was dominated by women. The conclusions were completely wrong. We had about 8 speakers, who all gave personal anecdotes of how the police were bullies and had unfairly treated them, and we were supposed to construe from this that the police department was in crisis and needed to be reformed. Well, that is an appeal to anecdote, and is a logical fallacy. The actual, OBJECTIVE DATA, shows a different story. https://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler. https://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler. https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/02/numbers_tell_the_story_is_there_a_war_between_white_cops_and_black_men.html. I was allowed to speak, and dared not state the objective numbers publicly, lest I be lectured about my ‘white privilege’, and how I can’t understand a race unless it is actually my own skin color. Both are absurd fairy tales, but they are emotionally accepted by many in America, and objecting to them is heresy.
But, this same matriarchal thinking takes place in Stanton. Women are fiercely territorial, and there is nothing wrong with that, as it was God’s design. That is why God placed the man as the head of the family and the nation, and made him responsible for its state. Once you place women in leadership, they have a hard time understanding what is objectively true, and right and wrong is often dictated by their feelings, which are an often changing phenomenon. I’ve seen many marriages, involving preachers, in Stanton, where the woman is actually in charge. She is often domineering, bossy, and refuses to be in subjection. This example is set for the young women in Stanton, who find it hard to understand why their imitation of the women teachers in Stanton makes them pretty unattractive to the young men. When a woman is in power, she has a hard time listening to those who are under her telling her she is wrong. In her mind, she’s in control, and those under her need to listen, or else. When I owned an insurance agency I had a young woman with 3 children who worked for me. She was beloved by customers, and had a very good personality. Back then, I didn’t understand a woman’s nature, and thought if you treated staff like royalty, they would respond. Well, I gave her the upper office in the agency, which had been the owners for decades. I was shocked to see she responded by a loss of respect for me. Of course, her performance did not improve, and within a year, she had quit her job. She was given every incentive to perform, but, when she was handed things, she didn’t respond well. I questioned myself, but then considered some of the tyrannical bosses I had had to work for, who I endured and successfully got my job done, and decided she simply did not perform. None of the agents who left my agency voluntarily ever went anywhere else and did much better.
Off topic but I found it interesting reading a common confession from a member. Asking forgiveness for their responsibilities that they had taken on in their unworthiness and carnality. Smh, it made me consider how impossible it is to live up to expectations that the cult puts upon their members. This individual whom I know is a wonderful individual. Makes me wonder how many go not confessing what the cult expects from their members.
It makes me sad how many people in Merie’s church are truly miserable. Many are depressed and feel like they are never good enough. None of us was ever good enough for Christ to die for us, but He did, even for those who hurt him physically. He didn’t do that so we would be so miserable in our Christianity. This has been mentioned before, but the complete lack of understanding of God’s GRACE is what causes so many people to be miserable and feel like any shortfall will take them to hell (or to condemn others to hell, as they do so often). And I think we all know people who are “happy” there on the outside, but they are not on the inside. Fake joy, fake love. It’s so obvious once you are away from it for a while.
I am glad that while I am not that close to a lot of people now (my social group has grown, but my “very close” group has shrunk), I do feel like the feelings I have toward others, especially the ones I am very close to, are more genuine and my love does flow out more easily. It’s amazing how much love you can feel toward others when you’re not bogged down by oppression and self-righteousness. Those things are heavy on the spirit. Very heavy.
Craig, don’t you just love how the word “carnality” is used, and overused, in the group? What exactly does it mean, and who determines what is carnal and what is not? And how far does it go? When I was with Merie’s group, even sleep was considered to be carnal. I remember one christian who was rebuked because she wanted to go home after Sunday eve class-to sleep! She was labeled “carnal”!
Even at the time I thought it was ridiculous (the rebuke, I mean).
When Merie’s group wants to discredit someone, “carnal” is usually one of the words they use to do so. As if that word has some type of special power! “You are CARNAL!” When someone was told that, they-and all around them-were supposed to recoil back with horror! In that group, you did not want to be called that!
Yet, who defines “carnal” in that group? I mean, is it carnal to cook? Bake? Play with your children? Enjoy your children? Are you carnal because you refuse to move to another congregation so you can stay and raise your daughter? (if you don’t have custody). Are you carnal because you want to go out to dinner with your husband on a Friday night instead of going to a “fellowship?”
I mean the list goes on and on. All of you who are still in the group, take a good look at your teachers and the evangelists. Look at what they do-not at what they say. Even Christ taught to look at the fruits rather than their words. Do the teachers leave out before Sunday, to go to the May meeting? So they can worship with all of those other teachers, and “fellowship: with them, instead of their own congregations? Do they get to go to their children’s weddings, even clear across the US-a week ahead of time, but the average christian can’t? Do they get to stay near their own children, and grandchildren, but the average christian can’t? Do they ever do any “carnal” activities, but aren’t called carnal?
If you look and watch, you will see that the teachers have special privileges that you don’t. Especially the top teachers.
But guess who defines “carnal”? That’s right! The very ones who make up the rules and regulations that others have to follow-but watch and see if they themselves follow every single one of those rules. You will see that they find ways around them, for themselves. And they always have a “reason” as to why it is ok for them, but not for you.
Think about it, and keep your eyes open. Pray about it, and God will help you to see.
The word “carnal” means of the flesh.
Almost everything in this life we do is carnal. Going to work, eating, sleeping, marriage, walking, etc. Where God is concerned is if we are “carnally minded” as a carnal mind is enmity against God and can’t follow the laws of God because they are the opposite of each other. i.e., the world likes to live in fornication/adultery because this is a lust and God’s law teaches against it. So, if I want to live in that carnality I can’t follow the law.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Where the line can be drawn on carnality is when it keeps us from obeying the laws of God. Where a carnal mind can also be dangerous is when my decisions and judgments are based on my carnal mind. I am using my fleshy desires to fuel them instead of the understanding and laws of God. This is why the world can’t see the things that are wrong as wrong. They judge with a carnal mind.
I have seen nothing wrong with going to see firework shows, going with family to the park, etc. The list can go on. A carnal mind is one whose desires ad judgments are based on their fleshy desires.
“But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.”
Correct, Lynn. I would even say it’s not wrong to desire things of the “flesh” (steak dinner, a glass of wine, sex with my wife, material items, etc.) but it’s wrong to be controlled by them (gluttony, drunkenness, sexual addiction, hoarding and coveting). Moderation is the key. Living for our fleshly desires is hedonism, or pure self-seeking. This is the opposite of godly living.
I agree.
On the topic of Jesus being risen, it has been being talked about for the last 30 years in Stanton, that ‘we aren’t here to take up a seat’.
Ironically, the same people who are always preaching, are the ones always talking about we aren’t supposed to be taking up a seat. It’s almost as if they are congratulating themselves for their teaching positions, and setting themselves up for adulation.
It apparently has had little effect, as some people have been taking up a seat for the past 30 years, and Stanton certainly isn’t adding new people to the seats, besides children they have, and baptize under 10% of them.
If you don’t want people taking up a seat, then how about, Stanton, lifting your oppressive regulations, opening up honest dialogue on scriptural differences, and ceasing from suppressing dissenting opinions? Stagnant Stanton. That’s what happens when you silence dissent and command people to become automatons. God never wanted this to happen.
Today, in Vallejo, they spoke of how the body has many different parts, and they all follow the direction of the head. Perhaps, in reference to me, it was said that our arm doesn’t just suddenly go flopping off on it’s own. LOL, that was most certainly intended for me, unless I badly miss my guess.
Well, thought I, when the arm is commanded to put itself in the lion’s mouth, it’s a pretty wise arm that does it’s own thing. LOL. Further, it’s just as dangerous, as it is to stick your arm in a lion’s mouth, to obey a Stanton teacher who commands unscriptural teachings like Sin must have lifelong consequences, and cannot be completely and rapidly healed by God. Keep in mind, the New Testament is FULL of people with physical and spiritual maladies, who were immediately and completely healed, many having had the ailments for decades. Christ said his word can do as much or better than he did, so, the only thing holding anyone back from repentance and healing are the first two sins that will take you to hell, Fear and unbelief. Stanton mandates fear and unbelief, by claiming that the healing and remedies promised and displayed by Christ, simply aren’t available. As such, they are right, and their church dies as a result. May they actually read the New Testament and follow it’s script.
Of course, sin has punishment, the entire purpose of it is to lead the erring back to the right, not to keep them in sin prison. But, Stanton, like the Prodigal’s older brother, believes in spiritual seniority, and can’t bear to think that a Prodigal Son can get a party, and they get no attention at all.
Quite sad.
Ecclesiastes 10:1
“Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.”
Years of spiritual victories are being wiped out by Stanton’s intransigence.
Hopefully they will repent, so they can be healed. Those who deny others mercy, are themselves denied it. Those who will not forgive others, are not forgiven themselves.
You can be the most perfect person on earth, never falling into lust, cheating, lying, laziness etc.. but if you can’t forgive, all of that is for naught.
‘He that cannot forgive others, breaks the bridge over which he himself must pass if he would ever reach heaven; for everyone has need to be forgiven.’ George Herbert
Just have to share! Bill left Stanton ( Des Moines congregation) for good yesterday!
He called the teacher CH to ask about missing Sunday classes to see our granddaughter graduate yesterday. He was told he was not allowed to miss based on “Matthew 18: what is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven.
That was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now he is FREE! I thank God for his deliverance.
I also thank Kevin for this blog as Bill had been reading it, and could relate so much to Debbie Steven’s story.
Thank you Kevin!!!! Your blog works!
FREEDOM!! Please tell Bill I hope he will stick with God and Jesus and I hope he might also consider doing the Clean Bible Challenge. Mandatory class attendance is such an ingrained part of the SCOC teaching and a common element of all high control groups. Remember what babes are told ‘all you are commanded to attend is worship’. Ya, right, if they only knew the real story. Just think – Bill missed one class; one class out of thousands he has attended previously and POOF, he is considered a horrible back-sliding christian; one who is turning his back on Christ; apostate; lost forever.
This is certainly a major shift in your lives as a couple. I hope things go well for Bill and you both.
‘I propose to fight it out on this line, if it takes all summer’ U.S. Grant
Running from Stanton won’t solve any problems. If more people would confront them and not back down, Stanton would change for the better, and a person’s courage can be developed.
A woman’s nature is fiercely territorial, and so standing and defending a position based on ideas does not really make sense to her. That’s how God made her, and that’s why he made her to be in subjection. When she leaves it, she imitates Eve, is deceived, and pays consequences.
Most of the Christian churches have no mandatory anything. Funny how business, sports, and the military have mandatory meetings, but we are supposed to think Christians are harsh for having mandatory meetings. That’s why business, sports, and the military are doing very well, and the church is an undisciplined joke.
‘Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all.’ George Washington
No discipline? No success.
I didn’t get withdrawn from for objecting to discipline, I got withdrawn from for objecting to the idea that people cannot be healed by God, rapidly and completely, when the New Testament is full of examples of it. If discipline is not in accord with truth, it becomes tyranny.
I don’t see how a grand daughters graduation is more important than Sunday classes. That is setting the wrong example for your grand children. Telling them they are more important than God and his day is not wise at all. This entitlement mindset is why the 40 and under crowd is the most undisciplined and uninformed generation in our nation’s history. If they keep on their current pace, they will destroy America. They don’t understand what they don’t know. Had a fabulous meeting on Saturday for New California, where California is going to split into two states. It was nearly totally lacking younger people, because they are often brainwashed by the schools and media, and coddled by parents and grandparents. Biggest bunch of crybabies in our history. They are the most stupid and corrupt generation in America’s history and the blame goes on the shoulders of the Baby boomers for doing a terrible job in educating them about God, history, and virtue.
I’ll go to my grandchildren’s graduation before a non commanded class any day of the week. That is in no way putting a graduation before God. Nor setting a bad example for my grandchild. Plus very wise getting away from Merie’s cult. How many classes have you been in Montesquieu and wondered, really, what a waste of time that was. Portland had plenty of them that I attended. You’ve brought up the May meetings Montesquieu and how ridiculous some of the discussions were. No different with classes. What is commanded by God? Worship. Everything else was a cult founder Merie Weiss creation. Good job BB. You made the correct decision. Hoping many more open their eyes and leave the cult.
If there are no mandatory meetings, Craig, how do you propose to run an effective church? Because no society in human history that was successful failed to have commonly agreed upon meetings. But, apparently, you believe you can create what never was before. Good luck on that.
Having a Bible Study is one of the greatest uses of my time I’ve ever had. I learned the most in my life in Stanton Bible classes, and have never come close to learning anything close to it in Bible classes in other churches, which are normally singfests and preachers droning on about ‘the luv of Gawd’. It’s disgusting. Meanwhile, they won’t talk about cultural issues at all.
Simply having people meeting together and having it revolve around God’s word is very healthy. Malachi says, ‘Then they that loved the Lord, spake oft one with another’. If we fail to prepare, we prepare to fail, and it’s impossible to meet often together without preparing for it, and mandatory meetings is the only way. You even study the lives of successful business men and they were highly regimented and disciplined with their time. So, with the church. We used to have Blue Laws, where no businesses were open on Sunday, because everyone went to church. But, people are rebellious, and want ‘liberty’. Well, ‘liberty’ without virtue will lead many of you right into slavery. Nothing new either. Just as you rebel against fixed meetings, which are part of every single successful biblical church in history, the Jews rebelled against Moses and his commands, which were for their own good. As a result they were destroyed, hopefully you profit from their example.
Yes, the May Trip has some pretty absurd discussions, Craig, there we agree. However, the solution isn’t to avoid mandatory meetings, it’s to ensure the meetings are in accord with the Scriptures, which would avoid the nonsense discussions on breaking the bread too many times.
Mandatory Bible classes have been around a lot longer than Merie.
Leaving Stanton to go to another church, which likely isn’t teaching scripturally at all, judging from DB’s newfound ‘understandings’ on tattoos and alcohol, is simply jumping out of the pot, and into the fire.
I’ve been in at least 30 churches since leaving Stanton, and the churches are dying, and a big part of it is they have no discipline. There can be no love without discipline. God said he chastises those who he loves, and the same applies to the church. This idea that people show up, sing, listen, and go home again is so broken and dysfunctional I don’t know where to start. The church lacks deep relationships, it lacks a separation from a broken culture, and it lacks dedication, determination, and discipline. Salvation requires sacrifice, which means to give up one thing for something having a more pressing claim. Where there is no sacrifice, there is no Gospel and no salvation. But, the milquetoast, easy believism, faith-only churches will never talk about that.
Montesquieu, Merie’s cult has mandatory classes. Do you believe they are an effective church? I have no issues with scheduled classes or meetings. Where I attend we have a schedule. What I disagree with is to make that which is not commanded by God mandatory. Merie’s cult is known for their oppression. You miss and you’ll be reproved or possibly rebuked without an acceptable excuse that satisfies the cult leadership. All this as you’ve admitted yourself Montesquieu is a cult that is dying. I say it’s dead. You here what’s taking place in Greenville with the children. Discipline is backfiring huh TC. Lol. Also Montesquieu my friend, I never claimed to be able to create what was never before. Montesquieu you need to keep searching for a healthy church. You’ll find it.
Monte- Bill taught his granddaughter that she is more important than a bunch of cult followers. In no wise did Bill put God before his granddaughter because God cannot be found in the Stanton “churches”.
Bill did attempt to right the situation with the ‘teachers’ in his congregation. He addressed the fact that WORSHIP is the ONLY commanded assembly. He knew it was going to be a losing battle before going into it because Stanton refuses to be corrected or instructed. He knows that is their greatest fault- as do you Monte. Why are YOU not there fighting to right the wrongs??? Why do you think OTHERS should be standing up to Stanton when you are spending your time fighting to change California and it has nothing to do with your salvation or anyone else’s????????
Instruct others to stand up and fight after you finally escape the spiritual bondage of Stanton!!!
Sunday is the Lord’s Day, Donna, so missing it for anything save an emergency isn’t a good idea. I go to plenty of churches that have 3 hour meetings on Sunday, and they are all, predictably, dying and fading. If one is lukewarm in serving God, their demise is assured. Lukewarm Christians are even worse than the heathens, prostitutes, thieves, and murderers. At least the latter do it with all their heart.
Yes, we agree that Stanton has a hard time hearing, but that doesn’t mean God’s design is to be thrown to the wind. It’s easy to disregard EVERYTHING, saying Stanton was completely wrong, but they taught quite a few ideas that were entirely scriptural. Mandatory meetings was one of them. If people can’t consent to agree upon fixed times to meet to study the Bible, what can they agree on?
I do occasionally go to bible classes and worship, even when I’m excommunicated. I think I’m doing quite a lot, all things considered. If 10 people would get withdrawn from and excommunicated, and kept going, Stanton would have a thorn it would find quite painful. For ideas that are scriptural, that is. Not advocating for withdrawable sins.
The backbone of America, Donna, was the church and marriage. Politics and the church are linked. Stanton didn’t realize this, and neither did I, until recently. So getting involved in California is my Christian duty. As a matter of fact, any Christian not involved in politics is not doing their duty. Right now, America is in a spiritual battle of epic proportions. The Democrat party is pure evil, and either they will destroy America, or they will be destroyed. http://allnewspipeline.com/Coup_Vs_Trump_All_Roads_Lead_To_Obama.php
Trump will declare the Insurrection Act, as our borders are being invaded, and we have treasonous judges, politicians, and a media. We just had the biggest coup attempt in American history, and the only time in our history where there failed to be a peaceful transition of presidential power. There is a reckoning coming. https://dailycaller.com/2019/05/16/donald-trump-insurrection-act-illegal-immigration/
You see, Donna, the founders weren’t watching television, using drugs, and porn, and they were reading the Bible and history. These are habits I’ve promoted heavily, because if we want freedom and liberty, we must live like free men.
The “Lord’s Day” may not actually be Sunday, but the “Day of the Lord,” or “Judgement Day.”
Prove me wrong.
I would like to discuss the concept of ‘going to worship’ on the ‘Lord’s Day’. Worship being used as a noun, a prescribed 2 1/2-3 hour gathering where prayers are said, public confessions are made, songs are sung, communion is partaken of, a money collection is gathered, a sermon is preached by a man who wears a suit and uses a paper Bible – not a tablet; where women are silent, except when they’re not…such as when they make a confession, sing or instruct a child. I have my doubts, my very strong doubts as to whether this is true worship.
Stanton’s worship fits in nicely with the New Testament church’s worship, though they have too much emphasis on tiny and meaningless details like the breaking of bread.
However, while many object to the New Testament’s design for Worship, it’s interesting to note what they worship, for whatever we give attention in our lives, we worship. Under the criticism is simply disguised self will, which questions so that it can assert itself above God’s command to love God and our neighbors.
I don’t see public confession in the New Testament, during worship.
Montesquieu, I don’t see public confession as part of worship either. A Merie add on. Public confessions at least in Portland were very entertaining. Talk about straining at gnats. Classes just to talk about public confessions would happen as reminders. It’s really ridiculous how controlled members become to confess publicly some of the things that were confessed.
You are right to have your doubts about Stanton’s definition of a “worship service.” I have an upcoming post about this…
It is indeed Sunday, as when the New Testament refers to the First Day of the Week and Lord’s Day, interchangeably, it’s referring to Sunday.
Largely subjective post.
Speak for yourself. When you cure your ahistoricity, you’ll obtain an objective view at last.
Lazy thinkers never find the truth, but never fail to delight in opposing those who do.
Yes, lazy-you! You didn’t cite any scriptures to support what you claim. Hence, Largely subjective post
If you don’t know the scriptures showing that Sunday is the first day of the week and to be observed as much, you have no business discussing the Bible.
You have two ears and one mouth, so you can listen more than you talk.
The Bible says ‘Seek and ye shall find’.
It never says ‘Demand, and you shall have’.
Wow! Strong words from someone who just told someone else that what they shared was “largely subjective” since they didn’t share any scriptures.
Not everyone here on this site knows which scriptures you are referring to. The Stanton people say the same thing to prove their points-go look it up yourself!
Sounds to me like you don’t know what scriptures so you just tell others they are lazy. I would have thought that you would be glad to share those scriptures, and expound on them. Instead, you make a statement and dismiss Kevin’s article. Hmmmm….
Monte – You said: “If you don’t know the scriptures showing that Sunday is the first day of the week and to be observed as much…”
Come on man, you can read my words better than that. Of course Sunday is the first day of the week.
My comment, which you have failed to refute, was that “The Lord’s Day” means the first day of the week.
The phrase “Lord’s day” is only found once in the Bible, in Revelation 1:10 – I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet…
However, “Day of the Lord” appears many, many times in scripture, and always—I repeat, always—refers to a day of judgment. It is used to refer to either judgment upon the nation of Israel, or the Day of Judgement at the end of time, sometimes called “Judgement Day.”
I’ll be waiting for your scriptures to disprove this theory about John’s meaning in using the term “Lord’s day.” I think he may very well have been referring to the context of the vision he was receiving from Jesus as a vision of the Day of the Lord.
Awww Kevin! I was waiting to find out what scripture he was referring to that says that Sunday is the first day of the week!
My point was to get him to think about how he responds to other people’s posts.
Whoops, sorry I ruined that teachable moment! Lol
Just sayin’ you’d be better advised to think about the history you ignore. It would be more profitable for you, rather than serving as a self-appointed arbiter over what responses you deem acceptable or not. Nothing subjective about that. LOL.
Kevin, I was responding to the typical insolence and impudence from Just Sayin’ who like tens of millions of proud Americans (including a few elites in Stanton) fancies his opinion, minus any serious research, deserves respect and honor.
I’d prefer to avoid semantic arguments. We’ve gone 2,000 years largely agreed on whether Sunday was the Lord’s day, and I’d prefer to avoid arguing obvious points.
If you desperately need the scriptures, which you are well aware of them yourself, and can’t find them in search engine results, I’ll provide them, but since I know an honest search will turn up the answers, I don’t really feel like providing answers to lazy people.
Monte, let’s bypass Google and go straight to a Bible search for the phrase “Lord’s day.” I’ll even provide a link to it here in your favorite version:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%2B%22Lord%27s+day%22&qs_version=KJV
Try it out and let me know what you find. 😉
Monte, I don’t see where ‘just sayin’ is ignoring history. Please explain.
It sounds to me like Bill was not disputing the fact that worship is commanded, but it was the rest of the day that was in question as to what we personally do with our time after worship. Bill was wanting to miss the classes and fellowship AFTER worship. Am I right Donna?
Striped Fish- that is correct.
Donna, I am sooooo glad! Bill must have been having his doubts, and I am so glad that he faced those doubts. And he is fortunate to have you to help him along too, on this new journey he is undertaking! Thank you for sharing the news, keep us updated as to how things are going. And tell Bill he is free to email my Hubby and I, we would love to hear from him! 🙂
I hear angels rejoicing as the chains fall.
The Sirens from the Odyssey had a pleasing voice too.
False equivalency, sir; the Sirens of Odyssey-lore are from Greek mythology, whereas what Kevin described is a metaphorical representation of the celebration we can envision happening in Heaven, as a result of one of the Lord’s sheep being liberated from the shackles and bonds of legalism and man-made oppression. It may be subtle, but it is a significant distinction.
Readers may notice I come under intense attack frequently. This is on purpose, and it’s due to so many being deceived and brainwashed by the media and schools. I cannot claim superiority, since I once was too. Couple that with the fact that modern churches are packed by millions of members also indoctrinated by the media and schools, and truth has a tough time of it. Since so many have no historical or biblical references, they STRONGLY object to ideas that are rooted in history.
Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, and that is why many on here, if they don’t quickly begin an intensive abandonment of the distracting habits many have had all their lives, have no future, in this life or the next.
SJ, the point stands. Leaving a church for dubious reasons, and heading to another that is likely inferior, is listening to the sirens.
Refuting ≠ attacking 🙂
Another subjective opinion. You conveniently ignore that not once was anything refuted that I said, and when it was, which was a fraction of the time, it was admitted.
You ignore the slanderous, nonsensical, and impudent attacks that are commonplace on here.
When you do the math on all ATTACKS upon me, you’ll discover that what you just said has indeed been REFUTED.
And to whoever keeps disliking my comments, Thank you!!
Further evidence I’m telling the truth. Would be awful worrisome if my comments were frequently being liked. Stanton used the same reasoning. ‘But Monte, how can you be right, if none of the teachers agree with you, and no one agrees?’. As long as God and my conscience agrees with me, I’m perfectly fine with the disagreement of billions.
‘No man is hated more than he who tells the truth’
Plato
‘And ye shall be hated of all men’
Christ
For the lukewarm Christians who always seem to get people to like them, but like women, can never take a strong stand on controversial topics, you are headed for the hottest hell imaginable.
‘The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, preserve their neutrality’
Dante Alighieri
I don’t ignore slander, I attempt to weed it out when I run across it, and it goes against the core philosophy of this site. But remember that this is not a full time job for me, as much as you try to make it one. It literally would be if I tried to respond to every word you write, much less everything other people respond to you. Lol
Love you, brother.
Monte. Yes, people don’t agree with what you write and they attempt to refute your statements, not attacking you personally. Monte, you often attack writers who dare even ask you a simple question. Instead of answering you accuse them of being ahistorical, lazy, unworthy of your answer. You have an ere of superiority that is concerning.
Awesome news Donna!!!