In the interest of generating more Biblically-based dialogue here, I thought it would be useful to post a Q&A blog where readers can leave questions in the comment section and I’ll provide my take on it from a Biblical standpoint. I’m really not interested in who said what to whom, which is easy to fall into when you’re having a historical discussion. Nevertheless, that’s just not why I started this blog.
Instead, I’m interested in having Biblically grounded, spiritually mature conversations about the church and the Bible with those who are sincere in trying to sort through the many issues raised by the SCOC sect. I’ll provide my point of view and you can provide yours.
Rules of the road for this exercise:
- Questions must be sincere.
- Questions must be able to be answered from the Bible.
- I’m not afraid of hard questions.
- I’m not an authority. I will simply give my honest opinion based on my understanding of scripture.
- Don’t expect 24/7 responses. It might take me awhile to respond to more detailed questions. I work full time and have a big family I kind of like to spend time with. 😉
I haven’t decided how to format this yet, so I’ll play it by ear. I may answer in the comment section as part of a conversation, or if it needs more space, I may answer in its own post.
Ready? Go!
Kevin or anyone really,
Don't you think James 5:16 confess your faults one to another………. is talking about public confessions?
The scriptures has this way of speaking to an individual or to a congregation. See Mathew 18:14-17, Luke17:1-4, 1john1:9, on these scriptures one needs to be careful of the concision ( to edit down or to mutilate). I heard one individual insist that 1John1:9 (incorrectly) meant to confess to God only. I showed him James5:16. He eventually consented partially, because he could not explain away James5:16. but he stated James5:16 had no other scripture to compare it to, so I refer him and you to Luke17;3-4 "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents forgive him." (4th Verse) "and if he trespass against thee seven times in a day and seven times in a day turn to thee, saying, I repent; Thou shall forgive him." Please notice the word "saying": The man speaks his repentance. Therefore I am understanding he is confessing with his mouth to a trespass in his life. So we see all these scripture seem to work first singularly when one person confesses to another person, or if a person confesses to God and in the plural sense when a person confesses before a group of individuals or an entire congregation. Such as in Nehemiah9:2-3 The people stood and confessed. See also Nehemiah1:6 This is where the Elder/Elders or recognized older teacher/teachers (Leaders)confesses to sin for the entire congregation. This is what Nehemiah was doing. So confession of sin is both plural and singularly applied in old testament scriptures and the plural/singular idea seems to fit in all the new testament readings. Notice in Leviticus4:13 "And if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty". (14) "When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullocks for the sin"… (15) "and the Elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the Lord". Although the word "confess" seems not to be directly stated; it is understood one must offer a confession with a blood offering. Today Christ is our offering. If you read further in Leviticus we find that this also applies to Leaders, Rulers, Priest, and common people like me all who have sinned through ignorance. If this is what we must do to cleanse ourselves from sins of ignorance after being washed in the precious blood of Jesus Christ what is one to do if we continue to sin willfully? This is what I believe Christ speaks of in Mathew18:15 concerning withdraw from a brother. To do this scripture justice I believe one should best start in Mathew18:10 You must read it yourself; here, I'll paraphrase: "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones";…. (11) "For the Son of man is come to save that which is lost. (12) verse through (14) Christ speaks of the one lost sheep among a hundred before concluding with Mathew 18:15 "Moreover" "if thy brother shall trespass against thee, Go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: If he shall hear thee, Thou hast gained thy brother". Notice God says the same thing through Moses in Leviticus19:16 " Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: Neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbor: I am the Lord". (17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: Thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. These Laws go out to the poor and mighty alike (Leviticus19:15) and the book of (James) No respecter of persons. But notice again in Leviticus 19:17 Rebuke thy neighbor and not suffer sin upon him. Some people seem to view a Talebearer as one who spread false rumors or slanders. This is not always so. A Talebearer could just as easily spread correct information about someone's fault also. Revealing secrets and Opening Wounds.
@Nene Here's an article about Stanton's practice of public confession and my take on it from the scriptures.
I have taken it to mean that if we struggle with a particular sin or fault that if we confess that sin or share the fact we are struggling with it we can receive help from those we confess our sins to through their prayers and encouragement. Confess meaning admit, not asking for forgiveness in this case. I do believe if we sin against someone we should make things right by telling them we are sorry for what we have done to them but not based on this scripture. I don't believe that this scripture means to stand up and ask the church to forgive you for sinning in public and bringing reproach upon the body of Christ. Praying for one another to be healed doesn't mean that the person leading the prayer has to mention the public confession in the public prayer in order for the person who confessed to be forgiven. I take it more like a personal admission to a Christian that 'I am really struggling with having patience with my coworker, please pray for me'
Amen anonymous @ 8:36. I agree. Nene, public confession is only when a blatant, brazen sin has been done in front of the whole church. The concept works wonderfully when someone opens up with another with their problems, who they can trust, and they receive help and prayer. It backfires horribly when preachers attempt to use others shortcomings to boost their own power and prestige. Happens all the time in Stanton's churches. Someone will confess being late, or falling asleep, or running a stop sign and they begin to be treated as spiritually inferior. So the whole church is stagnant, stale, and static. It's a pity that you can't go for help and be helped by someone who sincerely loves you, and won't use your weaknesses against you. It's currently like a bunch of piranhas or sharks, when they taste blood, (sin), they attack and destroy the hapless victim. That is NOT how God designed the church to help sinners. It is pathetic, because you not once see a sinner parading their sins proudly, but rather confessing in private and trying to get help. It doesn't matter, the preachers will blare it all over the country.
I remember one incident where a couple of children of Christian parents got involved in some incest. The mother wanted to commit suicide because she knew it would be broadcast all over the nation. Sure enough it was.
Another instance was when a teacher supposedly committed adultery, which turned out the allegations weren't even true, she was actually forced, but that didn't stop the teachers nationwide from blaring this out and smearing her for all time with this accusations which turned out to be totally false. Not a single teacher that I know of has ever confessed this.
I remember a preacher in my church brought out that a member of a church on the other side of the country practically had fallen into a serious sexual sin. He later had to correct himself and say what he had heard was not true. Can you imagine? You are a preacher and you publicly bring out something extremely damaging to a persons reputation publicly and then retract it. This without actually having spoken to the brother once in your life? It is pathetic!
Another instance was when a teacher in our church moved across the country to help another church. She fell into a sexual sin, which of course had to be broadcast all over the country. I guess it was because we all had to be informed of what we all had to forgive her of, though I can't see how it benefitted us to know and I certainly believe it was none of our business. Anyhow, this teacher made her confession and came back. Can you believe when she left, the preacher rebuked the church and said only teachers and preachers should be warmly greeted as this former teacher was greeted. Apparently he never read where heaven is happier over one sinner repenting than over 99 that need no repentance. The spiritual pride is strong in this organization. But as is usual with pride, they feel they have no pride, and are humble as Job, and that anyone who dares to tell them the truth about themselves is really the proud, arrogant, conceited one. Wouldn't believe this nonsense, except I see it with my eyes constantly.
The foundation for a dysfunctional relationship is one of a dominate and a submissive. The foundation for a healthy relationship is for both sides to be treated as equals. I understand Martin Luther's anger at the sins of leadership; that is the broadcasting of gossip throughout the brotherhood and passing this off as "teaching." My first teacher, who started the church in Prescott AZ was one of the greatest gossips I had ever known. I never had to wonder what was going on in any other church because he was a confidant of the evangelist in Spring Valley and whatever he was told by the evangelist he broadcast to every other church he visited, he seemed at the time to be a great teacher with so much knowledge. But in time you realize his teaching was not biblical but rather sensationalism; anything that seemed exciting is what he preached (and what is more sensational than something sexual?) To add to Martin Luther's anger is the fact that there are many more things kept secret from the brotherhood, only the submissive are gossiped about, the dominate individuals sins are not talked about and their secrets are kept secret. I thought I was being smart by getting rid of my first teacher by encouraging him to go out and start his own church in Prescott. He was quite an oppressor and his pride was so great that he could not back down, even when he wanted to, and had to go out and start "his" church. The preacher from Albuquerque replace him and very quickly started getting rid of anyone that was not submissive to him, (second verse same as the first, it did not get better rather it got worse.) You will never be treated as a spiritual equal only as a submissive to the dominate teacher. I was taught this pattern of dominate/submissive but broke free from it, many other brethren did not and just wait to be dominated again and again and again. If I am not treated as an equal, that is with due respect I walk away. I am not a victim of the oppression of the COC rather I am a survivor. I set healthy boundaries in all my relationships today and I do not let another man raise his voice to me, or express his anger at me, I simply walk away from that abusive relationship. I am glad that I have fallen down because I now know how to get up. I still pursue after Christ and I now longer submit to abusive teachers.
Anon in Phoenix, my church history is rusty… what are the initials of the preacher from Albuquerque? And are the initials of the preacher who started Prescott DS?
Put it right out there, Anonymous at 6:01. So much for allowing the grace of anonymity as I see you have. What is your name? I'm sure you are not as pure as the driven snow.
LOL. Nice initials anon in Phx.
Dear concerned, knowing the three parts of the human mind (the arrogant, the conscience and the lust) as I do and that only one part, the arrogant mind is capable of violence I do not post my name. Yes Christians are capable of violence and one man in particular here in Phoenix has a very bad temper and has abused his children, threaten his brethren, and threaten his coworkers. So no I will not submit to your request to post my name. My anonymity is for my protection and the protection of my family. And yes, I do see the 350lbs thug around Phoenix from time to time and I have to tell my children to get in the car quick before he see's us and it gets ugly.
LOL, Anon in Phx. You sure use initials effectively to communicate:) I am like you, I refuse to be commanded by people not commanded by the Bible. Yes, completely agree, it is sensationalism, and your sentence "taking gossip and passing it off as "teaching" is oh so true. Truer words may never have been said of Stanton's methods. But it sure is effective at keeping people in check. People are so scared to speak out, because if they do, their own backyards will be exposed for all to see. Since we all have backyards, this destroys love, because you cannot truly love when you cannot be vulnerable and are busy fearing what others will say and think about you, which is the fear of man, which is a snare. But I repeat myself, for Stanton is certainly trapped.
Anon in phx how can you murmur on the internet and then cast stones at others? Q&A
Now that is a good and fair point J.F. I believe once again this all boils down to what people think the motive for this type of communication is for. Is it for teaching purposes? Is is to for the purpose of making me feel better? The possibilities of motives is endless, don't you think?
J.F. define murmuring. My purpose for sharing my experiences is simple: to expose false doctrines and abusive teachers and hate filled christians. Hazel convinced one man, named Chris, that his wife was crazy (which was false.) D.S. first taught me that I was a fool, and when that had no effect then he taught me that I was reprobate, and when that had no effect he taught me that I was reprobate concerning the faith. Hazel taught Christians to question other Christians sanity but D.S. taught us to question our own sanity, he worked hard to plant fears and doubts about ourselves in our own minds, a truly evil act, his teaching, if believed and followed, created mental health problems( which he should be held liable for in a court of law) but he was such a railing (yelling) oppressor that I did not believe anything he said. D.S. baptized a man in Prescott that was a convicted rapist on parole, and even praised him in one talk at a meeting. The day the man got off parole he reoffended and was sent back to prison, I have to seriously question the judgement of D.S. in this matter and his ability to teach anything good. Got to show the evangelist that we are having baptisms was the attitude I believe. The teaching that all masterbation produces homosexuals is false but sensational teaching. All humans who reach adulthood will masterbate themselves yet only 3% of the worlds population are homosexual. The COC has made a mountain out of a molehill they have sensationalized this small sin, yes it happens, but only to a small percentage of humans. Diane holds to the teaching that the sin of masterbation is the root of all evil. This is the baseball bat of oppressors since Merie made masterbation withdrawable (it was never withdrawable in the bible she simply added to God's word and yes that makes her a heretic) What should have been taught was the practice of self control in every area of life as Paul the Apostle taught in 1 Corinthians 9:25. To have a glutton like Diane teach against masterbation is like having a herion addict tell an alcoholic they are going to hell, they both lack self control and are both condemned. To establish self control you must be able to set limits upon yourself, this is enough and no more, in eating, in sex, in emotional expression. D.S. had no emotional control, he was an angry, hate filled teaching preacher, no self control over his own emotions. You have not learned the bible what you have learned is to be a drone and let the evangelist in Spring Valley do you thinking for you. If the evangelist find out you are on this blog after he has commanded all active church member not to be here, he will have you marked and avoided, so I understand why you don't post your name only "concerned" and I respect your need for privacy.
The teaching, if I may correct you here, was by Merie Weiss. Her take on masturbation was this; All masturbaters are not homosexuals but all homosexuals are matsurbaters. All those who commit adultery are masturbaters but not all masturbaters commit adultery etc.
That is not what D.S. taught. I am going on what he taught, and I would not be suprised if it is incorrect. We in Phoenix had to endure countless "Merie said" lesson from D.S. to the point that I came to believe that Merie never stopped talking from the time she was born until the time she died. Their in no complete collections of the teaching of Merie so their is no way to prove what she taught or what she did not teach or in what context she taught any of her lessons. I respect your assertions but again their is no way to prove it true or false.
Freda Harper has a near complete collection of Merie tapes.
Martin Luther July 19, 2015 at 10:12 PM
To add, when I was looking to my brethren for help in my physical infirmities, I asked that they could take notes and share with me what I missed and even if they could call me to see how I was doing. The preacher from the south said that I was being selfish. He went further and was talking about this in sermons he did in other congregations. During the May Week I attended a preacher, I knew, who lives down south, approached me and said he heard what was going on.
So, I see where you are coming from. If only all that energy could have been used in actually carrying their brother's burdens instead of spreading hurt around.
I have a serious question about 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. That women should cover their heads when praying. Why doesn't the COC or many other Christian churches practice this??? It was commanded by God so why don't most women practice this?
That scripture is talking about a woman's hair being a covering for her (it should not be shaved or shorn). It is not referring to a woman having to wear a hat or anything. It is my understanding that in the pagan cultures some women had shaved heads which may be why Paul addressed this.
I disagree that they are talking about hair. Paul said for a man to not cover his head. If Paul were talking about hair then all men should be bald. I think women should wear a covering during worship. Just my opinion.
I agree Anonymous 4:24. Well said.
I am so torn on this subject…
If Paul was addressing this because of pagan practice of shaving a woman's head and there is no such practice in these times, would we still be under that instruction? Also, what about verse 16 which says "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the
churches of God” Could that mean that it is just a custom and not a 'command'?
Also, what if a woman has short hair? Should she then wear a covering during worship since she doesn't have her hair for a covering?
There are a number of women in the SCOC with short hair, especially older women, it seems to be perfectly acceptable in the church as well as society for a woman to have short hair.
This is so very difficult to understand….
continuing from above. 6:16… I know not to judge what's acceptable to God by what's acceptable in society since society accepts every manner of evil but you get my drift, even the church allows women to have short hair, well, at least they don't insist on long hair. interesting. How short is short, how long is long etc.?
I can't help but think that if you felt that God truly loves and cares for you that you would not be so worried about the length of women's hair or that a woman's head has another type of covering over her hair. It is obvious you want to please God and we do that by keeping Jesus's commandments, the greatest is to love God with all of your heart and to love others.Perfect love casts out fear. We are supposed to cast all of our care on God because he cares for us. I think God wants us to live in peace. Keep it simple, a man should look like a man as God created him and the same goes for women. And don't fall into judging others based on appearance as God looks on the heart.
To those who were or are taught by the SCOC about the covering being the woman's hair. Many women teachers in the SCOC have short hair, how do they justify this?
Nene, James 5.16 says nothing about confessing publicly! If you look at it carefully, it simply says confess your faults to each other. Sometimes I think ones try to make scriptures say things it doesn't, myself included!
The whole point of Jesus' coming was to break down barriers and to reconcile us with each other and with God. When I sin, I have put a barrier there between me and God and whomever it was that I sinned against. When that happens, I want to reconcile with them (God and those I sinned against), so I will do whatever I need to. If that means I go one by one, then I will. But I want to do more than simply say "I ask forgivevness…" From personal experience, that does little to reconcile differences and hurt. I find myself also telling ones how sorry I am, and my desire to make things right.
One Christian pointed out to me that when her husband committed adultery, he thought that his confession was all he needed to do. He honestly thought he didn't need to make amends, or tell her how sorry he was, etc! And the Stanton group didn't teach him any differently. He never acknowledged the hurt and pain he caused her, or the fact that she no longer trusted him.
I also found that the group was short on apologies. Not all things are sins, some things simply warranted an apology. But you will pass out if you hold your breath waiting for one!
For example, when our second set of teachers came to Lakeland, they rebuked us sharply, and kept bringing it back up, because our Sunday eve class was only an hour long! A couple of years later, we found out that Greenville (where the evangelist lived) only had an hour long class on Sunday eve! So we changed it back to one hour, and no apology from our teachers. And who led the charge to change back to one hour? You guessed it! One of the teachers!
My point is that we should do what we need to in order to make things right between ourselves and God. And pray for each other that we can overcome our problems, not condemn each for those problems.:)
Debbie, did the Stanton churches leave the Lakeland congregations in your charge when TL and JL were sent back to Des Moines, Iowa?
Yes, the two evangelists put me in "charge". But after the two teachers were sent from the Memphis congregation I stopped teaching. I disagreed with the way they wanted to(and did) teach. Especially the preacher/teacher. A Christian would come to him about something and seek counsel, and then he'd rebuke that person publically. He said that the way to "work with" individuals was to rebuke them publically. Then one day he told me that the men in the congregation wouldn't talk to him, that he couldn't get them to open up to him! He couldn't figure out why! I suggested that he maybe call out and talk to someone, and I suggested some of the teachers that he knew. Can you guess what happened next? He told the other teacher what I said, and she accused me of thinking there was something wrong with that teacher! I only suggested he call out, because isn't that what we do? Get counsel when we hit a brick wall? Pray?
So I stopped teaching. I couldn't agree with the way teaching is done. I liken it to a math teacher passing out math books. Then they tell you to read it, pray about it and then you will know how to add and subtract! Then you are rebuked publically if you do it wrong!
How long do you think this person would be a math teacher?
A teacher is suppose to show how to do things, answer questions, encourage you, and also show you where you went wrong. A good and effective teacher shows you your error with love, and in a way that also makes you feel you can go back and do it the right way.
So yes I was a teacher for awhile, but not because I wanted to be one!
For the two evangelists to single you out as someone they could put in trust of the Lakeland congregation would mean after all the years you had been in the Stanton Churches you followed their way of conducting their kind of Christianity. What made you finally fall away from that group?
To Anon at 7:24AM: It started when we had a Christian from Alaska come to help the congregation. After some troubles, she realized she wanted to go back home to Alaska. When she spoke to the evangelist from the south, she asked him if it was ok to move back. He told her that of course it was ok! That it was her choice. She shared this with us. In the meantime, we were instructed by our teachers to not tell this Christian otherwise. They told us it was sin for her to move back as she had been sent to Lakeland to help out. But that we were to be quiet about this as this Christian needed to move back to Alaska so that the teachers there could deal with her.
I am ashamed to say that I went along with this. It was deceit, no doubt about it. But the counsel to do this came from the same evangelist who told this Christian it was ok for her to move back.
It got me thinking about a lot of things I had had doubts about. It was like a thread that started to unravel, and it just keeps on unraveling. You can read my story here, as to when I finally decided to leave.
BTW, I didn't fall away. I left on purpose. I no longer could in all good conscience stay with the group.
I hope that answers your question!
Debby, I have a couple comments about your previous post above.concerning being rebuked for keeping your Sunday evening class at 1 hour. Number 1 – that's a perfect example of public rebuke centered on OPINION rather than blatant/unrepented SIN. (As if the amount of time designated for a class is addressed in the scriptures!) Number 2- I find it so interesting when a teacher can rebuke on something one day, giving all the reasoning behind their teaching and as soon as they hear about so-and-so 'lightening up' on that judgement they jump to the 'new' judgement and all the supposed Godly reasons for the 'old' judgment get discarded with no questions asked. Number 3- I really wonder how many teachers in the church believe even half of what they are teaching and if they truly believe it why is it so easy for them to drop old beliefs for new ones when certain people come up with 'new' judgments.
Debby, were you in Lakeland when the churches started cutting off their Sunday morning classes at 1:00 no matter if the class was only 5 or 10 minutes long? Also, were you ever caught in the middle of 'two of the-four' giving you two totally different judgments on a matter?
I appreciate your comments on this blog, thanks for taking the time and I'm very glad you have a good memory of what you went through. I applaud your strength.
I'm surprised that the southern evangelist told the sister she could go back to Alaska. From my understanding you're pretty much stuck in whatever congregation you're in unless you have one of the 'church approved' excuses to move. Am I understanding that the southern evangelist told her she could move but gave the congregation or teacher of the congregation the impression it wasn't okay for her to go back since she was sent there by the church?
I'm understand Debbie to say the evangelist told her she could go back to Alaska using deceit because his motive was to get her back into the hands of ML to reprove her. And then using more deceit told the teachers in Lakeland not to tell her that but let her go thinking all was well.
To Anon at 2:04 PM: The southern evangelist did indeed tell this Christian that she could move back to Alaska, that it was her choice. AND he also told our teachers not to say anything to that Christian to dissuade her from moving back to Alaska. When I asked why, I was told that the teachers there needed to deal with her, not Lakeland! This is what shocked me! And got me to thinking about the doubts that I had been having. 🙂
Debbie, I personally know GP was known among the teachers for using these types of strategies. The police call it entrapment. I called it just plain deceit.
To Anon at 1:11 PM: Number 1; I agree! We were rebuked for being so carnal as to only wanting our class to be one hour long! (This is after a 2-3 hour worship, 1 1/2 hour am class, and hours long fellowship!).
Number 2; I agree! We couldn't believe how quickly it was brought up and changed back to one hour! when one of us asked why and what about the rebukes we had all gotten before, our teacher said that was all in the past and we now had a "more complete understanding!"
Number 3; I never taught anything that I didn't believe. That was part of the problem, the teachers from Memphis didn't agree with me. We didn't see eye to eye. They believed in rebuking based on assumptions, I believed (and still believe) in going to the person first. I found out a long, long, time ago that there is always two sides to a story. And everyone tells stories from their point of view. I was in no hurry to make a speedy judgment, I wanted more facts first.
As a matter of fact, I rarely rebuked. I mostly taught. Even with TL and JL, I never rebuked. I simply let the congregation know that they were sitting down, and that we were to give them the time they needed to figure some things out. That they were still our brethren and that we still should love them as before!
I didn't know anything about cutting off a class at 1 pm even if it meant class only lasted 5-10 minutes!!! when did this happen??
And please explain what you mean by "two of the four" giving different judgments! I have no idea what you mean!! It was probably after I left and two more people were sent from another congregation. G and J. But I would love to hear what you mean!! Thanks!
Anon at 2:38: I most heartily agree! I call it deceit too. He lied to her, he is an intelligent man and he knew exactly what she meant when she asked if she could move back to Alaska!
Debby, by 'two of the four' I mean GP and his wife PP, TC and another teacher KS-female, was in Stanton, now has moved to Greenville. The four 'decision makers/main teachers of the teachers/main counselors. TC's wife doesn't seem to have as much say in things as GP's wife, although I could be wrong. Once a person drops a 'GP, PP, TC or KS said' it's pretty much set in stone, don't even bother disagreeing or doing what your conscience bids you.
Regarding Sunday morning class ending at 1:00, I am not sure when it started, maybe about 3 or 4 years ago? and not sure if every congregation practices it. Amazing, isn't it. I'm sure some people are hoping to someday end night class, zzzzzzzz.
Anon at 3:33: OK! thanks for the clarification. No, I was never caught between the four. And TC's wife usually wasn't as vocal, she was wonderful. Very humble and kind and understanding.
I left in 2006, so I missed the 1:00 thing. I don't know why they just don't eliminate the am class period! One church of Christ (considered offchurch by Stanton group) had a worship, then am class, and then fellowship. No evening class! I thought it worked very well!
I didn't know that KS moved to Greenville, was it because her husband moved her there?
By the way, does anyone know where some of the Lakeland/Tampa congregation went to when it was shut down?
The new testament church rebuked people that were living sinful lives so they could make themselves right with God. Why do people on this blog have a problem with the SCOC when they rebuke someone so they don't go to hell? Is it not the loving thing to do when you see someone in The wrong to rebuke them so they can repent and be saved?
Also, to JF: the problem I have with the public rebuke is that a lot of the rebuke is based on assumption. While I was with them, rebukes were being done without first going to the person. The rebukes were based on what one individual saw and reported (not two or more witnesses), and motives were assumed.
For instance, my husband and I were publicly rebuked for being late to personal work. One, we had no idea we were late! The time had been changed one night when we were at a home study! No one let us know of the change, so we still arrived at the usual time. Second, we had no idea we were late because the meeting started after we got there. Third, not one person asked us why we were late, and were we ok. Four, not once did the teacher come to one of us and ask about it.
Also consider this-we had never in 21 years been late before. Ever. Yet one time we are late, and we receive the public rebuke.
I only share this with you because it's the most common way that sin is dealt with in the Stanton group. Never mind the scripture that says to go to the person first, never mind that if you did go to the person first you may find out all kinds of things! Maybe it wasn't what you thought. Or maybe they will share with you troubles they are having. Or, maybe you will find out that they don't care, and then you might need to bring another brother with you!
Go back into the new testament and look at the incidents in which Christians were rebuked publically. You will see that it was for serious offenses-such as persuading other Christians to not eat with the Gentile Christians, thereby causing a huge division in the church! Or offering money to buy the power of the Holy Spirit! Or for being publically contentious, even when told to stop!
You may find it difficult to believe that most of the rebukes are based on assumptions, but when (not if) it happens to you then you will fully understand. It does a lot of damage to the individual, as well as with the individual's relationships. any counsel or judgments concerning that individual will be wrong because it's based on those wrong assumptions.
Then, because they feel they have to, ones make confessions for things they didn't do! I will share with you that the wife of one of the evangelists shared one time that Merie had soundly and publically rebuked her for something that she hadn't done. She went ahead and confessed it because of the pressure to do so. She still regrets it.
I hope I was able to make myself understood! I think public rebukes have their place, but are used too often and based on assumptions not fact.
JF, Rebuking people for living sinful lives is different than rebuking people for not following the opinions and man-made doctrine of the teachers. Big difference. It's rare when a person gets talked to privately by the actual person that has something against them, rather the teacher 'brings things out in class' and usually the whole congregation knows exactly who the teaching is for. Of course the person who was the subject of the teaching or rebuke has no way of defending themselves or disagreeing without being accused of murmuring. Opposition is never tolerated so oppressive teachers continue running peoples lives and teaching their own opinion. Sad but true.
Amen, Anonymous at 11:24, and Debby Stevens. I agree with Kevin, I don't have a problem with public rebuking, when warranted. For instance, if a homosexual couple came to church and persisted in their relationship publicly, after having been gone to privately, I feel a public rebuking would be called for. But the problem with the Stanton church of Christ is you have people with little concept of how to love others, consistently rebuking others and calling that "love". One of the hallmarks of love is it mourns the evil of others, it does not puff itself up and down the other person. Love realizes that failure and sin is an event and not a person, and it acts accordingly. Love hopes all things, believes all things, endures all things, bears all things. Love also suffereth long, and is kind. Many other scriptures show that love overlooks a multitude of sins. I can't see how it is so hard to understand when David praises God saying his gentleness made David great, how the teachers in the church can fail to exercise that same gentleness with the flock.
You think about a flock of sheep. Do you see the shepherd going around beating the sheep to keep them in line? Because that is the equivalent of the constant rebuking going on in Stanton that is there attempts at love. I personally respect those who tell me I am wrong to my face in private, and welcome this when done in accord with scripture. But I have a big problem when I confide my faults in private and they are publicly aired by individuals who never bothered to have a relationship with me.
People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. Jesus earned the right to rebuke his disciples because they saw him weep when Lazarus died, they saw his constant self denial and concern. They saw him feed the 5,000, they saw the love and selflessness he constantly displayed. When you rebuke someone because you care and you want them to become better, that is a whole lot better than sending out constant rebukes with little concern what happens to your target. The amount of cold hearted dismissal of sinners that routinely takes place in the church is unconscionable. If David wept when Saul and Absalom died, Jesus loved Judas until the end, and Moses loved Miriam and Aaron when they betrayed him, how do teachers in the COC get off just dismissing people with about as much care as one displays when a gnat is brushed off?
JF: Just one more thing about public rebukes…a lot of the rebukes are also based on what "irritates" a teacher. For example, I was publically rebuked in a sermon for what I would write on notes left for non-members to remind them about the non-member class. I would write
July 24, 2015
"Hi! My name is Debby. I just stopped by to remind you about the bible class that is tomorrow night at 7:30 pm….
The teacher was upset that I said "tomorrow night" instead of putting "July 25, 2015." It was a lengthy rebuke and very sharp. He said things about how I was suppose to know how to write those notes, etc.
The problem is, if he was correct, then all of the Christians doing contacts in Portland, Or were in sin. Because that is where I learned to write those notes and that's how they were doing it. (Don't know how they are doing it now)
Of course I never made a confession, but I did change how I wrote those notes. To this day I wonder why he didn't just ask me? And what exactly was my sin? He never said what the sin was in his rebuke.
Over the years I saw this happen time and time again. Sin was never mentioned. Believe it or not, I was even rebuked for leaving a fellowship (after being there for 4 hours) with my husband when he wanted to leave. I was told I could have stayed longer and someone else could have taken me home. I should have asked to stay longer! AND what was the sin? I have no idea! They never said. Even when I asked in private, they only said go away and think about it!
Public rebukes are being used as a tool to make people shape up, even on things that are NOT sin. To make ones conform to the rebuker's way of doing things.
conformity is NOT uniformity. And, where in the bible does it say we have to do EVERYTHING the same way?
I like that last statement, 'Conformity is not uniformity'. The Jehovah Witnesses have conformity as well as the Mormons but that does not add up to Christian unity. Good point. I wanted to also ask you where are you going for worship now?
to Anon at 12:03 PM: Thank you! I didn't make that statement up, it was something I read and it stuck with me!
I am currently attending a community church where I live. I like the messages and they are things I face in my life! They stay close to the scriptures and aren't hung up on legalism. But at the same time they aren't so far out there that anything goes!
Are you still with the Stanton group, or have you moved on?
Debby,
I was rebuked in a sermon for not allowing my brethren to show up at my house any time they wanted without notice. I was given examples where people have been allowed to show up late in the evenings without notice. I was told that I wasn't a "man of God" if I didn't allow this practice.
I brought this up before TC and he even sided with them. I brought up that if you say that I am in sin for not allowing this then you have made this a law as a sin is a transgression of the law. That got nowhere.
The reason I asked if they would call first is because I was in a lot of chronic pain and some strong pain meds. I wasn't always able to accept people to just drop by unannounced. They didn't like that.
I have also seen many times where open rebuke was done with partial knowledge of the situation and their justification was that if they were wrong that we just learn from it because Christians go through these things. If you try to clarify the situation you would be accused of being defensive and/or standoffish. Either way you were wrong.
What I don't think that is being realized is when you treat people like this they separate themselves from those doing it. It ruins relationships and lost of trust and confidence in the preachers and teachers.
This really annoyed my preachers and teachers when I would no longer give them any attention. I would avoid them. That would then put more fuel on the fire. As this keeps getting brought out in classes, sermons, and amongst themselves it paints that Christian as a disobedient Christian that won't accept teaching and/or counsel in the eyes of the rest of the congregation without them really knowing the truth of the matter.
Debbie Stevens, long in, long gone
To Anon at 7:12 PM: True that! 🙂
I see a lot of good questions and responses. I'll go through and compile them into a list soon, and weigh in where I have additional thinking to add.
J.F. – I'll address your comment in more detsil, but I don't have a problem with "public rebuking" when necessary in extreme cases. The problem with SCOC is this is usually the option of first resort, not last. It is used more as a tool to keep people in submission to the teacher than to correct someone in love. It's also used as time filler to avoid actually having to come up with something productive to say.
I have a a number of questions for anyone that was a teacher or once was a faithful member of the SCOC.
Did you ever doubt what you were teaching? Did you ever 'get in trouble' for not teaching something you didn't believe? How did you attain the position of teacher? Were you removed from your position by force or by your own choice? Did you ever rock the boat or did you just go along with decisions made at May meetings or made by one of 'the four'. Did another teacher ever confide in you that they don't necessarily believe everything they teach? Did you ever sneak and do things the church disapproved of? Did you ever get in trouble for doing or allowing something that was later found to be okay? Did you and your spouse argue about the church rules for raising children? What are your biggest regrets?
To Anon on July 23 at 1:52:
So sorry I didn't answer you sooner, I didn't see your post! I will try and answer you as best as I can!
#1. I didn't doubt anything I taught. That is one of the reason's I stepped down from teaching! Some of the things I was suppose to teach I just couldn't! And I didn't agree with the way that the other teachers wanted to do the teaching!
I will share with one example. We had a young couple who had 7 children. The father was from Puerto Rico. His wife came to us and said that the baby, who was a few months old, was still sleeping in the couple's bedroom with them. She wanted to put the child in it's bedroom with a crib, but that the husband wouldn't go up into the attic and get the crib. She said the reason was because in her husband's country, babies sleep in the parent's bedroom until they are a year old.
The other teachers wanted to immediately rebuke this young man. I wasn't of that mind, To me, it was a matter between husband and wife! I turned to the wife and asked her what her husband said when she talked to him about it. Do you know what her reply was? SHE HAD NEVER SPOKEN TO HIM ABOUT IT!
So I asked her how she knew it was a custom in his country. She said she just figured it was because it had happened to her with all of their other children. She had ASUUMED it!
Fortunately I won out on that one, she went back and talked to her husband about it and it got taken care of.
#2. I was put into the position of teacher by the 2 evangelists when my teachers were "sat down" by the group.
#3. I wasn't forced to sit down, I chose to sit down because I couldn't agree with some of the teachings, and the method they used to "teach".
#4 Oh yes! I rocked the boat!! Got in trouble for it too!
#5 Yes, I "sneaked" and did things that the group did not approve of-I started using other versions of the bible to supplement the KJV. But that was the only thing that I can remember that I did.
#6 No, no other teacher confided in me that they didn't believe everything they taught. I think it was because they feared they would be withdrawn from for murmuring.
#7 yes, I got in trouble for doing things that later were deemed ok by the group! The whole Lakeland congregation did!
#8 No, my husband and I really didn't disagree on raising our children (my step daughters). We didn't always agree with the group's rules, and sometimes didn't follow the counsel. And yes, we got in trouble for it.
On one occasion when our youngest was about 12 and still living with her Mother, the group wanted my husband and I to move to Albany, GA. Why? To be the token white people there. The only white couple had just moved and the group was afraid that no white people would want to be part of a congregation that was strictly black. We declined, because we didn't want to leave our youngest daughter. Her oldest sister had gotten pregnant at 14 and had the child at 15 and gotten married at 16 and was pregnant again. Their Mother was not keeping an eye on the children, she left them at home alone for hours. We believe the scripture that says that a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an infidel, so we declined to move away and leave our youngest with only her Mother to raise her.
For this we were rebuked, and labeled. It was thrown back into our faces many time! However, we had events that occurred after our daughter's Mother remarried, and we were able to get her safely out of the Mothers custody before the stepfather could hurt her. We would not have discovered the problems if we had been in Albany and may not have gotten her out safely and in time if we hadn't been in Lakeland, FL!
To Anon at 1:52: sorry I didn't finish above! My reply was too long!
#9 Oh yes! I have regrets!
One, I wish that I had left sooner. I only stayed because the two evangelists and other teachers assured me that things could be worked out. It took me awhile to realize that by "worked out" they meant that I would conform.
Two, I wish that the group would be willing to see and admit to mistakes they make. Then we could all learn from them and continue to grow! But they are not willing to admit to mistakes, let alone make changes.
For instance, look closely at 1Corinthians 16.1-2. What do they teach is the "collection" here?
Actually, the collection Paul was referring to was the one he and another Christian were going to pick up and take to the saints in Jerusalem. There was a drought and famine going on there and the Christians in Galatia and Corinth wanted to send help. Paul was instructing these two churches (NOT all of the churches) to start setting aside now.
Do you see them continuing to set aside after that? No. Do I know if they did or not? No, I don't. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. But Paul wasn't instructing and commanding all of the congregations to do this forever and ever.
Am I against taking up and putting to a collection weekly? NO! But I am against teaching that this is what 1Corinthians 16 is saying, and against teaching it's a sin to not put into the collection. If a congregation decides it's the best way to set aside so we can pay the congregations bills and to assist Christians in need, then I'm for it!
I hope this helps! Please feel free to ask your questions and perhaps others will be able to answer some too!
I was just wondering what are some of the names of places you all worship since leaving the SCOC? I understand if this is too personal of a question to answer for some people.
Or if you don't attend any particular place HOW do you worship/practice your faith?
We worshipped with another church of Christ until we moved to another state. We now attend a community church.
We have also had wonderful people to help us overcome the legalistic mindset that is so very difficult to shake! It skews a person's view of scripture, and hinders them from truly understanding what the scriptures are saying in context!
Hope that helps!
It's time for another Reformation in America. Not attending anywhere until it is what the Bible says the church ought to be. Sick and tired for prostituting truth for unity. I would rather die lonely and friendless, but at least have my conscience as my friend, than to sit in churches that are pathetic excuses for what Christ died to save, and since no one wants to rock the boat, the errors keep on keeping on.
I tried many churches, but I wasn't anxious to pay for the pastors BMW, or to be part of a church that knew their bible just as well as an illiterate person might, or to be part of a church, where, if I had died, my funeral would have been one wild scene. I didn't want to be part of the organized Christian system in America, it is broke, and it doesn't need more willing participants contributing to the slide into oblivion. What Christianity really needs is individuals who are willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING, and not compromise ANYTHING for truth. Until that happens, this miserable merry go round will keep right on spinning.
I have to commend Stanton, for while there are clearly upgrades needed, yet they gave up everything for what they perceived as being true.
I don't currently attend any where. I've been trying to read the bible for a while now and I feel like the "right" church will find me or I will find it when I have a good understanding of God and the bible. Until then I will study and read scriptures every night and learn what God has to say.
Amen, BICJ, not enough to go to church, have to know the Bible to know which church. Joseph did just fine when he was alone in prison, isolated from all of humanity, he drew closer to God. Moses did just fine when he was in the desert for forty years. David did fantastic when he was in the wilderness, with just God and himself, tending his sheep. Jesus began his teaching with forty days in the wilderness, spending time with God, and when he was tempted, he didn't respond with, "my church says", he said, "It is written". Abraham did splendid when he had to leave his family and strike out on his own. Jacob wrestled with the angel, alone. Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel were all alone at times. Elisha and Elijah were alone with God.
Be still, and know that I am God.
In him we live and move and have our being.
Some say the entire Bible is summed up by the verse that is supposedly directly in the middle of it. Psalms 118:8 "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man". Ironically, that is the root of the Stanton church of Christ's doctrinal issues. Men following men, and being too afraid to stand up and speak out against error and risk censure.
Q&A Who/What is the holy spirit? What does it do? I understand the need for Jesus but what is the need for the holy spirit?
A comment was made on the comment section of Donna Bennum's Story concerning women teachers…I am going to quote it here to continue the discussion in this Q&A section…
Concerned 5:10 wrote: Consider this. The teaching construct in the Stanton Churches is not scriptural. Woman, according to God, are not to be in the elder/deacon/evangelist/pastor place in the churches of Christ. It is sin. As a consequence there must be oppression even today to make it work. God's design has not been put into action with them so the results are human beings trying to make something work that can not without using force because God is not in it.
Merie had to change the mainstream COC teaching about women in order to rule her flock. Since Merie started SCOC women have exclusively ruled (with a 'puppet preacher') or had an equal part with a preacher in ruling most of the churches. I would like to hear both sides of this argument because I have often wondered if the role women play in SCOC is pleasing to God.
Anon. Aug.15.1:50 – in reference to the question about women teachers & leadership in the SCoC, I have seen both sides of this, the right and wrong. Being on the 'inside' of the SCoC I was raised up with DW/C & KS. I strove to be the kind of teachers they were, forceful and strong, and dominating. I vividly remember the very first time I was given permission to teach/rebuke. It was a new babe who let her toddler son sleep with his blanket. I brought this to the attention of my teachers and KS told me to teach on it (because we were taught that this can be a form of uncleaness in children). When I was told to teach on this- I felt EMPOWERED. Over the years I was given more and more teaching responsibility, and as a result, I usurped authority in my home, over my husband. My home suffered greatly over the years because I ruled our home. It was much like a single mother trying to raise kids without a father. My lack of subjection and usurping authority over my husband just about ruined me, my husband , and our marriage. WhenI was not teaching because I was 'set down' or Withdrawn- from ( not scriptural) and I humbled myself as Nebuchadnezzar, I tried to give authority back to my husband and encourage him to take the lead. Unfortunately he was made to beleive he COULDN'T lead his home. I was told by an evangelist a few years ago "he may never be able to change". What happened to Philippians 4:13?
Leading in the church and in my home has nearly ruined me, my husband, and my marriage at times. I often found myself 'tattling' on my husband, about his faults. This only empowered me more. Now I can see the damage it has done to my husband and he is constantly trying to please me by trying to 'prove he is good enough'. It is exactly the same as trying to be saved by WORKS. I'm ashamed I caused much of this.
MEN DO NOT RULE in the SCoC.
I now attend a Church of Christ which has 10-12 elders who live up to the requirements in Timothy. They lead in their homes, the church and in the community, mentoring the fatherless and ministering to those in need. Their LIVES speak volumes! There are NO WOMEN who lead the church. What a JOY and REJOICING in my heart to worship with my people who simply strive to be acceptable to God!
Ewwww, the part about a child being unclean because he sleeps with his blanket sets my teeth on edge. The epitome of ignorance. Donna, could you share the current teaching on uncleaness in children, the signs and symptoms and how it's dealt with?
I was in the Albuquerque COC 90-92 and I new WP. He was a good man. I believe he is still working out his salvation. I don't know If I know you. I met his wife, and I was withdrawn from before the time I drifted into town. You may ask JW who was a teacher there at the time. They were all good people when I knew them then. I don't recall any such things as you describe. They are still working out their salvation. Where Did I come from? Anchorage Alaska. I do recommend that you all consider carefully the words you choose. For I believe non of you have suffered in a Godly way unto blood. Have I you ask? Not really, but I did hitch hike down from Alaska in February 1988??? and slept out at -20 degrees. Eventually made it to Maryland and suffer the Monsoons there that year and then the cikadas. Ye I stayed in Green belt park. and I wish I could still do it again. Eventually I headed to San Diego but stop over in Albuquerque. sincerely David Stankowski
It was at that time I walked after my heart and fallen into fornication with a young lady at the Youth Hostle there on Central Ave. I told her of the Church and my troubles and my withdrawl. I guess I knew it was tale bearing, but it seemed everyone did that in and out of the Church. Tale bearing is gossip, but all gossip is not tale bearing. The kind of gossip we do not engage in is tale bearing. speaking of other peoples fault before we spoke to the fault maker. I'll speak of my own faults gladly because I sure hope I've learned from them. But how is it you call yourselves Christians and speak so of wrong doings you allegedly suffered. Where are your one or more witnesses you confronted these sinners with. If you wish to fellowship with Christ you should first try and suffer with him. Then you will know if you continue on to know God, when we suffer with him in righteousness. Yes I do include my name. If I have done wrong I will bear my Judgment as a Christian.
This is in response to anonymous Aug 16th blog at 7:38Pm.
Thank you for your honesty Donna. I went through a similar situation with my marriage but with a much worse outcome. I was married in the church and the first week after we were married what I said to my wife came out of the teachers mouth. The preacher from Albuquerque, WP, had converted her into a church spy. I was opposed so much that I just started telling the kids "go ask your mother" when my kids asked me how I was doing I told them "go ask your mother" One day I came home from work and there was six Phoenix cops and a sheriff's deputy waiting for me. My wife had taken out a restraining order on me and I was homeless at that point. I asked for help but was told that "we don't help people outside the church" (yes I was withdrawn from for railing; yelling at my wife) I found out an interesting fact: I didn't need the church's help. I found an apartment for cheap, always paid my child support, made my confession from withdrawal and found out another interesting fact: There is no difference between withdrawal and full fellowship once you have been through a withdrawal. I was avoided like the plague, The preacher from Albuquerque refused to take my phone calls (caller ID is so wonderful) or talk to me at all for the last six months I was active in the church. So I left and there was a vacuum after my departure of who to devour next. My wife became the new scapegoat and was told by the preacher from Albuquerque that "your just a castaway" and she was told to leave. Today I have two adult children who have served several years in prison(for drugs), an exwife who is now a homosexual and drug addict. I look back and the person I am most disgusted with is myself, for staying as long as I did and taking the church's abuse. It was not much different than high school where an alpha male dominated the other students, mocking and ridiculing the weaker students and getting the cheerleader pregnant. Not much of a church after all.
Donna, I also admire your honesty and your willingness to share your life with us. It takes real conviction and change of heart to admit your past faults. I believe the scripture about confessing (admitting) your faults to one another so we can pray for you would apply here. May your marriage be blessed.
Thanks Donna for shedding more light of the subject i am interested in. The reversal of leadership in the family unit. I do not know whether my ex CF is considered a teacher in her congregation but she has been there nearly 25 years so she has expressed her opinion there. As I read you entry above I nearly heard her speaking of how our family suffered, how she usurped my authority, how she acted as a single mom in raising our two children. All those things were Abusive to our relationship and she like the church leaders can not admit like you have that the actions of the SCOC caused definitive damage to several families. However unlike your awakeing that saved your marriage, CF remaining brainwashed and I finally told her she needed to get out of my life or quit that cult.
I feel sorry for those of you who still have faith in their teachings. You will be hurt and damaged. My children now 29 and 31 years old still carry scars from the mental abuse they suffered from teachers like you Donna. I was way too tolerant of the teachings that were imposed on my children through their mother and through the perverted teachers of the SCOC doctrines. As a result i lost my children's respect for my authority as they began to assume a new family under preacher/teacher leadership.
I blame myself somewhat for allowing things to get so far.
But I felt that a "Christian" upbringing was safe. I am still living a heathen life according to most of your so called Christian Values. I was forced to live in a shadow of shame to my children and it is only now that my children are seeing me in a different light. They accept me even with my heathen faults. It is hard for me to accept that so many people choose to live their lives by stories written by men nearly 2000 years ago. Science will continue to reveal the true history of those stories and will reveal a history that we have not been told because it it still hidden.
So Donna don't take this too personal, but if you are one of the teachers who influenced my children as my ex-wife CF did, you are not my friend, even though you spent time in my home. Much of the Spring Valley congregation has fellow-shipped in my homes over the years. Not one has ever expressed an admission of how I was treated as an outsider in my own home.
This cult will eventually fall to the ground under all of their lies and hypocrisies.
KF:I'm thankful to say that I did not have direct influence over your wife's life or that of your children. We lived in the Midwest and PA for most of our time in SCoC. I can definitely understand how it would make you not consider me a friend. With your wife being in CA, she was always under KS and GP. I was never considered a counselor (thank God!).
I, like you, am still striving to earn respect with my children.
I pray this sect would fall/fail so those with GOOD HEARTS can have ability to consider. The doctrine they continue to teach: saved by works, and trying to EARN POINTS with God, to be accepted of Him is definately a doctrine of man that they will be judged for. I pray your children will learn to honor and respect you- simply for who you are.
Anon August 16, 2015 at 7:38 PM
That is really sad to hear. These are the greatest reasons why I quit talking to most of the preachers/teachers and they did not like that at all.
What they called sin in my congregation is when you don't let brethren show up at your house any time of day without notice, when you look to the congregation for help with bills, physical help at your home, and sharing of scriptures from classes/worships you miss, also if you don't accept wrong full teaching/instructions/counsel, not going to them for counsel, not giving into the giving as much as they think you should, not physically doing as much as they think you should if you have infirmities, and more.
You really have to ask how much other members are really studying if they choose to follow the hierarchy and ignore those who need the church's help and guidance. I saw the other members following what they were doing and ignoring those who they chose to label as not righteous.
I saw by what they preachers/teachers were doing and saying most of the rest of the congregation were choosing to ignore me. At that time I was even thinking to myself that it was like being on withdrawl.
How can a Christian, who says they love God, mistreat another Christian and believe it is justified?
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
So many times I wanted to say something, but knew that it would land me in an unscriptural withdral that there is no way I could repent of to come back from. I was approached so many times with things I knew was wrong and held my composure. It seemed like it stirred them up even more because of that. The more this happened the more it came out,in a generic sense, I was not accepting teaching. This would cause the congregation to ignore me and my family more and more. The congregation really never knew what was going on and shame on them for not studying enough to know the difference.
The Bible teaches us if you let someone talk long enough you see what they really are about. KF, simply stated your not even a believer in the scriptures. To quote; " It is hard for me to accept that so many people choose to live their lives by stories written by men nearly 2000 years ago. Science will continue to reveal the true history of those stories and will reveal a history that we have not been told because it it still hidden." Whatever you say doesn't even matter. Your on the wrong blog.
My Goodness Concerned! You sure are sensitive to some critique of Christianity. I came to this blog to get some answers and rationale if any at all to my ex wife's behavior and brainwashing. I have gotten affirmation that the SCOC shamed and abused the people who came to them for answers and help. I got that affirmation from the many Anonymous entries on this blog. There's been few denials of the abusive behaviors of the Preachers and Teachers. Are You A Teacher? Most of the Anonymous participants wish to remain Anonymous from fear of retribution from the SCOC "Faithful" So Do Not Try to SHUT MY MOUTH. Your anonymity(under the mask of Concerned) however, gives me suspicion that you are one of the Faithful or perhaps even related to it's leaders. Do not be afraid as some others are. Unmask yourself, so that others like Kevin , Donna and Debby can better know you and your history with the SCOC.I personally had over a 20 year history with them as a provider for their workhorse CF. You probably fellow-shipped in my home Concerned if you belong to Sping Valley.I lived with their doctrine being forced down into the minds of my family, the ridicule by my own wife and children because of all the false teachings they ere subjected to. So Concerned "whatever you say doesn't express concern but only the same self-centered, maniacal, evil behavior of the SCOC leadership.
Many on this blog probably know who I am but you however remain in the shadow of guilt
You are right, I am not a believer, which, I have stated numerous time here. That does not mean that the SCOC did not do damage to my life as well. I lived with CF for TEN years before she got brainwashed by your cult in 1990. She was NOT A BELIEVER either. She was brainwashed and still is. They damaged my children So do not say my words do not matter. That only shows you can not admit your wrongs, like a few here have done willingly. You can keep cowardly yelling at me, BUUUUT
YOU Will Eventually LOSE 🙂
I knew you would pop, KF, and you did.
I feel for you KF. Although you are not a believer the destruction to you and your family is devastating. I am an ex member of the sect and my wife is still attending. I always thought that every stand that my wife has made or makes is my ultimatum! Definitely not a compromise. I wonder how many marriages have been destroyed by this sect. It has to be enormous. Don't worry about Miss Concerned. I say Miss because she acts like a women. What's better,. A kind non believer or a so called Christian without any empathy? I hope you seek our God and Christ in your life KF. All the best.
Thanks for your support Anon @ 2:59. I believe as you do that Concerned is a woman, not a miss, but an aging old cosmetically held together wife of a SCOC follower if not leader. She covers herself with fancy clothes and adorns herself with beauty products to give others the illusion of importance. . Obviously Concerned you know me from the past, and you wish to egg me on with your critiques which intend on "Popping" me into a response. Again I ask you to Peel off that mask that you wear literally and figuratively and reveal yourself to us. You will certainly be protected from rebuke by your SCOC Anonymous supporters. I'm sure you and your supporters took much joy in hearing that I and CF would divorce in 2007 after 24 years of marriage. Anon @ 2:59 is absolutely correct. The ultimatums and uncompromising demands made by spouses in the SCOC created irreversible rifts in our marriage. I have found another woman to live my life with.
She is much kinder than CF was. She can compromise when we disagree. She is so much smarter than any of the women that I ever met from the SV sect.(Suma Cum Laude Bachelors Degree in Math) She works and pays taxes. She loves and supports her adult children and encouraged them in their college educations. All the things that CF can no longer do.. she can do. I am happy and in love with her. I doubt CF can say the same about any other man in her life. So Concerned, you should turn your concern toward CF and not be concerned about whether or not you can make me "POP". Keep trying 🙂
"And in the end, the Love you Take, is equal to the Love you make" What did CF take with her?
And your still popping.
I wonder if "concerned" is really "CF"? If you are CF give us all the dirt on KF did he leave the toilet seat up? did he leave his dirty clothes on the floor in the middle of the room? Inquiring minds want to know!
No, Concerned is not CF. CF would not break the edict of the SCOC stay away from this blog. Only the SCOC leaders and their wives are the ones permitted to break their own rules. But they cannot reveal themselves lest their two-faced personalities and hypo-critic rules be uncovered also. Concerned is luridly loitering in this blog so she can pass on girlish gossip and make her report to the protected hierarchy. Much like any other institutional church, the aristocracy of leaders ( those who have the power over the congregation to change their doctrine and direct the ignorant masses) do not directly involve themselves in the work of the church. They recruit weak minded work-horses like CF and many others to do their dirty work. "Do unto others" is not their mantra. It's more like "Do for us, as we say and never forget that you are a sinner" When people truly look for help from this church, unlike mainstream churches, the SCOC looks the other way. Go ahead and give us another one-line response Concerned. We are as concerned as you are. POP, POP
As I was considering the questions about women teachers and such, I had to laugh about an extreme rule the SCoC have bound within the past 2 years. Based on the teaching that women are not to lead and/or take authority- especially during the worship service, a woman is forbidden to redirect a fan (even if it to adjust air on the elderly), or touch the thermostat. But if a member brings their OWN PERSONAL FAN to move air in their personal space, THEY CAN SWITCH IT OFF AND ON AND ADJUST IT DURING WORSHIP. THE MEN are instructed to be aware of women putting on sweaters or coats , or fanning themselves so they can move fans or adjust the thermostat.A confession is required if a woman so much as LOOKS at one of the men to get his attention, signaling with her eyes in the direction of the need. This is considered communication by a woman in worship. Talk about "straining at a gnat"!
That is ridiculous.
I read a lot of articles from the 50's – 60's that caused a lot of the COC at that time to go off. It all pointed to the same thing. The lack of study. We all know that without proper study, prayer, and meditation that we can't correctly divide the word of truth from truth and false. They don't really get what those scriptures are saying, so this is their understanding on it.
I agree Donna! How about when the scoC decided that when a woman is offered the Lord's Supper, she can't even shake her head if she is declining to take it? The man has to just stand there until he figures out that she isn't going to take it. To me it was ridiculous, the woman is still communicating! Even is she doesn't move a muscle, she is still communicating that she isn't going to take the Lord's supper!
I, too, saw the destruction of families. Many of the women were just like single moms, especially if the husband wasn't a member. He was made to feel like an outsider in his own home. And then the group wondered why marriages failed!
One of the biggest contradictions I saw was this-they constantly taught that "Christianity starts on the home", yet they don't give you time in the home to raise your children or have a relationship with your spouse. Every night there is either a bible class or fellowship, and you are required to go. When my husband and I would go out on a date instead of going to Friday night fellowship, we were rebuked!
Contrary spirit is the label given to those who do not obey the Evangelist in spring valley, or any of his enforcers. Once you have been labeled "contrary spirit" then the order is given by the evangelist in SV to persecute you out of the church and the appointed enforcers in each congregation carry out his orders. A person then is persecuted with a "contrary spirit", everything you say is quickly contradicted even if it goes against scripture. A double standard for sure: persecute the contrary spirits with a contrary spirit is the judgement. I once asked the preacher from Albuquerque why we did not do what one scripture exhorted and he replied "because Merie never taught that". One lesson held dear is that of submission to authority above all else, even the Bible. If the Bible clearly commands a christian to do something should they not obey it? "We do not go beyond the judgement of our teachers" is the commonly held understanding, that when followed to the ignoring of the Bible creates a religion all of its own. One day "the book of Merie " will have to be written to prove what the SCOC believes because what they believe can't be found in the Bible. I will buy one and add "the book of Merie" to my bookshelf right next to my book of mormon and my catholic catechisms.
Curious, what was the scripture in question? ( I once asked the preacher from Albuquerque why we did not do what one scripture exhorted and he replied "because Merie never taught that").
Hebrews 10:25 the question was about exhorting your fellow Christians as Sunday worship was approaching. The reason I asked him was because Sunday was dreaded in Phoenix, a real burden to even stay awake and listen to another dull sermon. As he would give his sermons I would notice he used less and less scriptures until one of the last sermons I heard which had no scriptural references at all he simply droned on and on about how some brother had said something that provoked an emotional response in him; he did not mention what was said that provoked his response, or even what the response was. I left scratching my head wondering "what was he talking about?" I was trying, in vain, to spice up our Sundays and was shot down very quickly.
"I will buy one and add "the book of Merie" to my bookshelf right next to my book of mormon and my catholic catechisms." LOL, very witty anonymous at 08:10. How right you are. I probably have about a thousand "contrary spirits" in me, because I have disagreed with evangelists on a number of occasions. Not least of which was this last May Trip, where I conducted civil disobedience in their meeting. If I have anything but a smile on my face before I die, I promise when I think about entering that May meeting, a wonderful smile will cross my face. Yes, you are so right, what your teacher says is always more important than anything the Bible says that may contradict it. So try to understand when they say in every nonmember class that we believe in everything the Bible says.
It took me seven years after leaving the COC to overcome my short temper. I tried everything from study the bible to studying psychology and nothing helped. The church's only teaching was: your unclean, but I wasn't being unclean. Finally I asked God why do I have a short temper? God caused me to understand that it was in the second week of my Christianity that is, the second week after I was baptized, my first teacher started yelling at me for something that I had done wrong, and I learned from his example that it is righteous behavior that when in authority and people do some perceived wrong you snap at them and start yelling at them. I had, in time, became just like my first teacher that is: an oppressor in waiting. I was fine until I became a father and had authority over my wife and children the I followed the example that I believed was righteous and holy and developed a short temper. Proverbs 22:24 states it best go not with an angry man….. I was baptized in 1990 and stayed 12 years until 2002. it was in 2009 that I was able to see the evil effects of being under an oppressor, 19 years I had a short temper until I reject my first teacher as evil and refused to follow his example any more. Life gets better outside the church! If you are under an oppressor you need to resist him/her or you will become an oppressor yourself. Get up and walk out and refuse to accept abusive treatment; it will save you soul
There is incredible power in the church of christ with the phrase "Merie said" Nobody really know what Merie said so I like to use it as follows: Merie said wash my car, Merie said shut up, Merie said give me twenty bucks, etc. No one ever questions you when you say "Merie said"
LOL. That is the truth. Merie said a lot of wise things, but not everything Merie said is the gospel. Merie said some things that were unscriptural. Prove all things and hold fast to what is true is what Paul said in Thessalonians.
Yes the COC says "Merie said", Catholics say "the Pope said", Mormons say "the president(of the mormon church) said. I am looking for a church that says "Christ said"
When you find it let us know Lol.
Are they still teaching that people should give at least 10 percent ?
They never tought this. That is Mormons I believe.
The Baptists are all about the tithe! and then some!
Yes, they absolutely taught that one should give at least ten percent. They taught against tithing but when asked about giving they would say ten percent is a good guideline especially if one received a blessing of an inheritance, bonus etc. it wasn't 'commanded' but definitely suggested. Donna could probably shed some light on the current teaching. Another teaching was that a person should give the same amount each week whether one was paid once per week once per month, self employed, etc. They didn't consider the collection taken up at a meeting for a needy saint a collection. Very interesting. Also Lynn mentioned that he was taught (rebuked?) about not giving enough in the collection. Never let the right hand know what the left hand gives comes to my mind. Give cash if you don't want people to know what is supposed to be an extremely private matter.
Is it sinful for husband and wife to please each other? Do they still teach against oral sex? What scriptures do they use for their beliefs?
Romans 6:19-23. You should keep your body pure and not engage in uncleanness. I hope that answered your question.
To Anon at 8:48 PM: I'm not seeing oral sex talked about in the scriptures that you gave. And how does oral sex make your body unpure? And what scripture defines what exactly is uncleanness? In the OT, uncleanness included touching a dead body, eating foods God had forbidden them to eat, etc. It doesn't say anything about oral sex.
Please clarify your answer and share the other scriptures that you used to come to your understanding! Thank you!
I don't know if I would spend my time defending this subject. There are much better debates one could enter into with much more honor than this.
Also Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural.
So what is natural? To people joined together in sexual intercourse. Every thing else is unnatural.
Marriage is one of the most honorable discussions to have. Unfortunately this woman driven sect cares not for this topic.
my point with this wasn't about oral sex per se, it was how that the Stanton group teaches things that the scriptures don't. Anon at 10:02 am proved that point, they are making conjectures and coming up with a conclusion that can't be proven.
In 2006 GP said at that May meeting that we can prove Christ only broke the bread once (for the Lord's Supper). I went back over every single scripture concerning the Lord's Supper, and it never once said how many times Christ broke that bread. It only says he broke it.
It may seem a small thing, but they teach inference as law. And only what THEY infer, all others are incorrect.
I believe natural means man and woman and unnatural is woman with woman. That's what I am understanding. The marriage bed is undefined.
That should have read the marriage bed is undefiled
It IS a sin. I prayed for guidance on this from God and he revealed to me that intercourse is the way to come together as man and wife.
The male sex organ is to come together with the female sex organ and "it" coming together with any other part of the body is against God's design and is a sin.
I refrain from anything in my marriage that doesn't honor God's design.
You must have had a hallucination not a revelation from God!
"it" as you know is called a Penis and you do not have to spread an Uneducated Fear of "it" "It" is quite natural. Nearly every species of man and animal have males with "its"
And yes Anon at 7:04 if the "Concerned " ones would examine more than just "sound bite" snippets from the bible they could give a better answer than their own opinion. Read ahead and after Romans 1:26 and you most certainly find it is speaking of same sex practices between men and same sex practices between women.
The "Concerned" ones, the leaders that, interject their opinions and spread guilt upon their followers. They fear using scripture for fear of being revealed as false. Do not trust their words.
Where in the world, or Bible for that matter, do you pull out any scripture that describes what you refer to as ("it" coming together with any other part of the body is against God's design and is a sin.)
Does this mean that man may not touch or hold "it" while urinating, changing clothes, washing his body, scratching an itch. Just how far does your defined (any other part of the body ) go. This sort of male-bashing and well I'll say it "penis control" is an excellent example of the movement toward a female dominated church. Not what the Bible intended. There are no women authors to the Bible.
One more item before I leave. Will one of you "Concerned" ones please explain to us the meaning in Romans 1:27 just after 1:26 that you "snippeted" above the term "natural use of a woman"
1: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly
Those words "use of a woman" do not imply a loving relationship between a man and wife. It implies a woman is to be used at the desire of a man (Natural) If I'm wrong correct me. Show some of that "Concern"
Allow me to back up my understanding of "use of a woman" with more of the scripture
From Cortinthians 1 KJV
1: 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (Pretty clear isn't it)
Well here again is scripture assigning woman the place of submission to the man. ARE WE AGREED
Your opinions and name calling are of little use to this site
in examining what SCOC puts forth as their truths. You essentially have been called liars and much worse. So defend yourselves with the scriptures that you claim to be your doctrine. And as so many have requested, you need to answer the charges of child abuse (both physical and mental) that have been seared into children's memories
Have you no SHAME, no HONOR even to your humbled brethren who question you on such serious matters.
I can't stop you from being liars and cowards. But I can speak to how you do not use scripture, but rather you use your own twisted and perverted ideas and ill conceived thoughts to develop a guilt-ridden and submissive following of unquestioning subjects.
Fear does not work unless the subject is made to be afraid. sSo why do you fear my posts? Have I made you afraid by telling truths and adding to the facts being shared. Answer the questions and bring your Bible.
And Oh by the Way
DO NOT FALSELY MAKE POSTS IN MY NAME AS YOU DID BELOW. at AUG 25 AT 4:52 PM after you read my post AT 4:11 HOW COWARDLY AND DECEIVING!
Please as requested by Anon at 6:17 Name the children who were slapped. And if any one of those names have been either of my two children then that hand that slapped, will see my hand.
I must say honestly there was a time I did have scriptures I enjoyed more than others, but since that time I learned to have respect unto all of God's words even the gloom and doom verses. The word of God does reprove me and then I know why the fear and trembling took hold of me. Why I cried before my Maker and felt so empty inside. Psalms51:1-19 Comes to mind. You must read it yourselves; There is no way to read it in part; for then we lose something from his word. You know the scripture: the one which says "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. I remember hearing Maries teachings on tape and I listen and listen. The things she said did not make me afraid. It (the words of God she spoke) some how made me want to eschew evil and cleave to the words she spoke. But she even said herself on one of those tapes; We should not be arguing with each other insisting Marie said this or Marie said that. We must have a love for his word to search the scriptures. All the scriptures and not have a preference one scripture over another. Only when we have a love for all his words can we truly grow. Psalm119:127 "Therefore I love thy commandmemts above gold"… "Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right";… Please remember all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect , thoroughly furnished unto all good works. We just need to be mindful to maintain those good works and not to become idle and babblers speaking evil one of another. For then if we continue in his word, then will we know we are his disciples indeed.
Learning Christianity from this group was a lot like learning Russian history from a communist: you will get a lot of history but it will be a little bit on the harsh side. The issue of "Merie said" is meant to expose a Charlatan (someone who is falsely claiming to have special knowledge, and in this case of Merie's teachings) My first teacher, the man who started the church in Prescott, AZ, DS, was a Charlatan. In Phoenix we had to endure over a years worth of his "Merie said" lessons. I finally asked him one day: How long did you know Merie? He replied that he had never met her! He never knew her and yet he repeatedly taught: " Merie said", what a fake! Merie never said haIf of the things he claimed she said. I saw that he studied every religious book he could find except the Bible. He seemed to have knowledge and understanding but his personal behavior betrayed his ignorance. He planted the seeds of oppression in my mind as a babe, and when I had gotten authority in my own life the bramble bush of oppression blossomed. If you have every been under oppression then you have a ticking time bomb in your mind and when you get any kind of authority you will follow the example you have seen: when in authority oppress. There is wisdom in rejecting false and fake teachers and their examples. Merie is a nobody, if you want to learn about God then open your Bible and find out for yourself: do put a tape in the tape player and think you will gain any understanding, you will just become a Charlatan yourself.
Should say "do NOT put a tape in the tape player and think you will gain understanding"
It was the utmost importance of the Levites to keep Gods temple clean. So it is with our bodies'. I tried to refresh my memory on this subject. Thirty years ago I thought I read "let there not be a sodomite amongst you." I now can not find that scripture. Oral sex is sodomy. The closes scripture I can find is Deuteronomy@23:17. So I do not know if it is a better interpretation or a interpretation that reflects a more modern universal view. Follow your conscience. If either party shows disdain at the idea, your love for that person will override any written law. Then read all that God says and how he view sodomites. Make your own decision and hold to it. In Erie several years ago, a man called me to meet with him. I did. He was the estranged husband of a Christian woman who objected to his ways of sex. I told him if you truly loved and cleaved to your wife and to God First you would not question her conscience. Second you would not insist on doing things she objected to. A man should be gentle toward her bodily and conscience. If ye be any other wise minded God will reveal this to you. Personally I disdain the idea.
What are your favorite scriptures? Mine is psalms 118:8.
This is the wrong site for questions like that! Don't you know this site is to bash Christ's church and to let a lunatic like KF rant about everything under the sun. Seriously though why didn't these "Christians" on this site answer your question???? Like I said you are on the wrong site for bible talk.
Thank you for sharing your favorite scripture Anon at 1:12pm. I am a Christian searching for the truth and tired of man-made religion. This site may seem like it is bashing Christ's church but unfortunately what is being said by many of the posters actually did happen or is happening in the Stanton churches today. Loving and good people are caught up in a church run by people promoting their own opinions and binding them on others. WITMFTS if you don't like what KF writes just ignore it. There is plenty of Bible talk if you read the whole blog. I see a need for a forum.
What is the motive for this site? We are the watchdogs of "the one true church." We hold the church leadership accountable for the multiple abuses of authority, child abuse, and false teaching that go forth. What is your purpose here? In your answer please include an explanation for tying children down to chairs, slapping children in the face and then talking about it publicly and even naming the children who were slapped(so the other children can mock them too?) The abuses of the SCOC are long and well known. This is the fulfillment of Acts 20:29 grievous wolves have entered in and now run this church and must be held accountable for their abuses.
One of my favorite verses is 2 Tim 1,12 and one of my least favorite is Phil 2, 12. If memory serves me correctly the Bible was divided into chapters in the late 13th century and not divided into verses until the mid 16th century. It seemed to me that the phrase "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" was the cornerstone of this legalistic Autocratic sect. So why do we read the Bible like a line item law Journal. It took some time before I realized in the sect that definition of study was to search the bible and extrapolate law. In turn allowing me to become and maintain citizenship within the sect. What I read was Jesus the Christ, The Cross and the resurrection. What do ya'll think? Sincerely
I had seen in my time with the church that they used only the negative half of the Bible. The scriptures that teach about God's mercy were not mentioned or minimized, and the negative scriptures were used over and over again. After my first two years I was convinced that there was no hope for mankind, that God was only "doom and gloom." We never studied out the four gospels of Christ and most of the teaching was complaining, criticising, and condemnation of their brethren. When I studied the Bible outside of the group I saw that God is love, and shows mercy to mankind for violating his laws and gently corrects man when he goes wrong. The church has put a negative filter upon their minds and the harsh and merciless judgements reflect that fact. Read the four gospel for you ownself and try and see the mercy of God shown to man through Jesus Christ.
Balance. You must have both. I find churches are forgetting to teach the terror of the Lord 11 Cor. 5:11) as well as the mercy of the Lord. Hell is very seldom mentioned or even the very idea of a devil. As a consequence people no longer consider the fear of the Lord which is his treasure. ( Isa. 33:6)
Does anyone know with any certainty how many women are in the sect compared to men?
Real Men cannot be found in this sect. The men of this sect are emasculated to the point of total submission the desires of the leaders, who, I am gathering from above are becoming predominantly women. It's been mentioned that the male evangelists are not growing the church. Is it for a reason? Perhaps a selfish reason? Perhaps a controlling reason? (smaller groups, like this cult are easier to control) ( Ever wonder why US Marines are so willing to fight) (They exert mind control over everyone of them) Cults do the same.
But the increase of female control and their resistance to male authority both go against the principles in the Bible itself.
Real Men step out of the shadows of anonymity and out from under the skirts of their mothers and wives.
Don't look for a Real man in the SCOC There are none
I am a manly man.
Proverbs 15:13 "but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken" This is scripture used to establish one of the hidden doctrines of the evangelist from Spring Valley. My first teaching preacher was only discouragement and found something wrong in everything everyone did (except those above him in the church.) His constant put downs and insults and criticisms produced a sorrow in the hearts of all the members of the congregation. Once he established the fact that God does not like you and does not approve of anything you do depression set in and once depression set in then learned helplessness followed. No member of the church shared in class, or made any decisions on their own. The congregation was fully controlled by the preacher. He then would complain that nobody would do anything, that there was no spiritual growth ( he had killed it anytime someone showed some) Thankfully after leaving the church I found out that he was lying and God truly is good and more than willing to help us who believe.
Who here has a problem with merie' s teaching? After reading every thing about her on this blog I feel more convinced than ever. She was a woman of conviction and loved the gospel. So thank you Kevin for this blog! 🙂
Merie Weiss's teachings have proved themselves through time. She taught old time Gospel and this is being lost in the churches today. The problem in the Stanton Churches wasn't Merie's teaching Gospel but rather the younger Christians hand in making judgments and enforcing those judgments. It simply got out of hand and Merie was too old to pull it all back together.
I hate to agree with you but I think you are right and that the church focusses on merie' s teaching more than Christ's sacrafice. I mean he DIED FOR YOU! He paid the price that we couldn't pay because he was sinless and gave a chance of hope to us all that we believe in him and be forgiven of sin.
Could you please explain Merie's teaching that Christians aren't emotional people. I can't find that in scripture anywhere.
Mere taught as human beings we have emotions but we are not emotional. 2 Tim 1:7-God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power of love and of a sound mind. When you are emotional your not of sound mind but your emotions rule.
Love is an emotion, as is anger, as is hate. My time in the Church I saw that the negative emotions of anger, and hatred, were most commonly expressed by those in leadership. The positive emotions were suppressed and discouraged by leadership, and it was a miserable place for all but especially for the weak like babes and children. All humans have emotions and reason. Emotions are like a horse and reason is like the man who rides the horse, and just as the horse can overpower the man so can emotions overpower reason. If you can control your own emotions then you also have the ability to control others emotions, for good or evil. Oppressors raise the negative emotions on their followers and lead them into destructive behaviors like violence and war. Good leaders raise the positive emotions and lead their followers into good works. I saw only cruelty and oppression from leadership in my twelve years in the church, not a good place to be.
I think Merie was sincere and a very dedicated and Godly woman, and that her teachings have been grossly distorted and misused. She actually had tried to reign in the uncleanness tactics being used on children shortly before her death. For being 40 years old when she was baptized, she sure left quite a mark on the earth. The lesson is to take heed to those you leave your message with and make absolute certain that love and justice are communicated. I have a good deal of respect for her and many of the teachers in the SCOC. Despite the errors, they sincerely try to do what they see is right.
Martin Luther is it your hope to rejoin the SCOC? What is the exact reason for your withdrawal?
Amen, Martin Luther.
Martin Luther I wanted to go a bit further with your thoughts. The Stanton churches of Christ were a no nonsense group of Christians that had very high standards within it's members. They didn't want Christians to bring into their membership adultery, fornication, masturbation, alcohol, drugs and such like. They believed the bible taught them they must withdraw fellowship from Christians that continue to do such things. But the Christians that suffered withdraw knew if they changed these behaviors they could come back in fellowship. They also could leave anytime without repercussion of any kind. It was their choice.
I personally found the Stanton churches of Christ to be a breath of fresh air from the system of religious hypocrisies in the religious world. You always knew where you stood with them. The people who ended up offended or hating what they taught or how they were taught usually were those who didn't want to give up their very bad ways of living and would try to stay in fellowship anyway. This, of course, would cause the Stanton Churches to react by withdrawing from these Christians. And I know Martin Luther to be correct in the sincerity and dedication of Merie Weiss. She gave it to you straight on and exhorted those being taught by her to study everyday to make sure they were being taught correctly.
Problems with families because of the Stanton Churches? Of course. Anytime the husband wants to go in a different direction than the wife no matter what the problem is there will be a lot of disruption . All I can say to you complainers on this blog is I know many families that are working things out with wives/husbands and kids with a good balance of church and family. Oh, and they are making it without all the drama I am seeing on here. We will have to call the Waaaaaabulance to come help you cry babies out.
Beautiful, Anonymous 9/4/2015 5:35, just beautiful. You missed your calling as a psychologist. They did have very high standards. To me, the challenge was inspiring. I didn't whine because the bar was too high. I was withdrawn from and excommunicated, not because of anything done to me, but because I insisted on speaking out when I saw others told not to come around the church, who really needed the church, and were not threatening it. I think I would prefer overly severe to overly lax, and the church of Christ has that.
I love the high standards, which is the law, but obeying the law was supposed to make us more compassionate to sinners. Everyone who has purified themselves has had a long hard battle with sin, and should be able to empathize with all sinners.
This blog made me seek to prove all things so I thank you Kevin Harper for that. I finally found God's wisdom and my life is transformed! I urge every person reading this; seek God's wisdom and pray for guidance! It has changed my life! Please seek God's wisdom in all that you do! Read his word. I love the bible so much. Every time I read it I LEARN SO MUCH! Please seek him in all areas of your life.
The problem I have with "Merie's" teaching is that is not really her teaching but rather whatever thought or impulse the teacher or preacher has they put out as "Merie's" teaching. I never knew Merie she died years before my time in the church and all we have left is the memories of what she said in the mind of those who were alive at the time which may or may not be accurate. Contrast that with the Bible itself where everything is written down and can be proved out, and you can see where the weakness is in relying on "Merie said". My first teaching preacher gave over a years worth of "Merie said" lessons and members accepted it as truth when in fact it was not. The teaching preacher was just making stuff up and throwing "Merie said" on the end of his teaching to give himself some credability. So I ask you: where is the book of Merie's teaching that I can prove out what she really said or not for myself?
I need to say that if you are a current member or the child of a current member and are suffering abuse, that help is available. If you are being beaten, slapped, pinched, poked, or any other type of abuse and want help please email me at: resident2013@hushmail.com and I can get you the help you need, to escape an abusive situation. Law enforcement is available nationwide to help stop abuse and if you are afraid to ask for help then email me and I will contact the appropiate authorities for you. God does care about you.
I don't remember any balance in the sect. Heavily weighted on the do don't or die side. Grace of course is a word that was hardly spoken. Of course there was some convoluted definition provided at times. I agree with Concerned that balance should be used in all applications of the word. So how do we convince or friends and families in the sect to equalize the scales? Jesus has several names in the Bible. Is purpose and existence is not to stamp us out of existence if we catch the red light in an intersection. All the best,
Very good post. Thank you.
Wow! is this for real?
Wow! is this for real?
Yes the abuse is for real. I thought that it had stopped since I left the church, but God has shown me otherwise. I thought it had stopped because I wasn't seeing it anymore, and God showed me that your not seeing it because your not there, the abuse still exists and people need help getting out of these abusive situations. If you have any compassion for human suffering please offer your help to current members or at the least be willing to call the police and report any abuse so it can be stopped. You can remain anonymous while helping others to escape the abuse. If you are afraid please contact me at resident2013@hushmail.com and I can get you help.
Soooo, where is your proof of such allegations that this still is goin on? Or is it just surmising on your part. Please give illustrations, names, congregations, etc.
We know that the abuses happened, evidenced by the many witnesses who testified on this blog. I'm sure there is at least latent emotional problems with the abused. I can testify to the oppressive nature of the sect to this day. Soooo Anon 3:05 are you a lawyer for the defense or the prosecution?�� Has anyone witnessed or received remorse or repentance from the sect leadership? I pray the sect will come to repentance someday and make things right. All the best to all.
You don't publicly name victims, you want to add to their shame? I would never tell you just watch and see who gets detained by the police.
Ok. Then name the congrgation and the abuse that is PRESENTLY going on as you honestly (?) stated.
When dealing with abuse you are playing hardball. If the abuser gets wind of pending legal action then the victims are beaten in silence. In 2002 when two different teaching preachers in the LA area talked about slapping their children in the face(public talk given by both) and how did the evangelist in S.V. handle it? He simply move them to different congregations, the carpenter from Chino went to San Antonio, and the federal employee from Stanton was moved to Chino. This appears to have been done to avoid prosecution on misdemeanor assault charges against them( the catholic church uses the same tactic to avoid prosecution of priests) So no, I will keep all anti abuse activities secret to protect the victims.
What was the reason for slapping them in the face? Was it a regular occurrence? Was it for extreme disobedience? Either way I don't think most people in the church do this. I have not seen it anyway. Sad for the kids this happened to.
The reason is unknown to me. The carpenter who was the teaching preacher in Chino seemed to be ashamed of himself as he shared his behavior in his talk. The Federal employee who was the teaching preacher in Stanton seemed to be proud of himself and even laughed about it after he shared his shameful behavior before giving his talk. The is a clear line between sin and criminal behavior. The church has authority in the area of sin and law enforcement is the authority in the area of criminal behavior. These two men should have been told to turn themselves in to law enforcement and suffer the legal consequence for their actions.( this would have put a chilling effect of the rampant child abuse) The heresy is in assumed omnipotence, they assume authority in every area of life, even in areas they have no knowledge of. As a new babe you are overwhelmed by the new knowledge and the vast amounts of lesson told to you. You assume the people in the church must be authorities on everything, however the church does not know best. They are not Biblical scholars, there is no seminary training, and they have only limited understanding of the bible. In the area of financial management I was told many things, yet they were in debt up to their eyeballs, The gave marriage counselling, yet many of the marriages of many of the teachers fell apart, they gave teachings on raising children, and their own children turned out to reject the religion they were raised in. The solution is to set boundaries on what you will listen to from your teachers. If they don't know what they are talking about then walk away. Do not accept any teaching or opinions from a charlatan it will end up badly. You must set boundaries and then raise them as necessary to keep these religious dictators from destroying your family and life.
To whom it may concern I have received zero email requests for assistance with abuse. I remain you fellow helper, please email me if you ever need help. resident2013@hushmail.com
Yes, anon @1:34. I too would like to hear the proof of your statements.
What kind of abusive proof do you need? I have stories in spades.
I have read many times on this blog that this Church of Christ did not get both sides of the story. Well we don't want to make the same mistake here. Before we can believe the stories told here we have to have the other side for right judgment.
Yes very true. Besides you can't condemn the whole church for a few bad people. Just because one person in the church does something doesn't mean everyone is like that. I have not seen any evidence of abuse in the church. If someone abused a child they WILL answer to God.
Do you think celebrating Christmas like the rest of the world is a sin? Please give scriptural reasons why or why not.
Give it up J.F.
Give what up? What a dumb reply.
I'M curious and I don't have my bible in front of me. I do know the new testament makes comments about sin; saying, (let it not once be named amongst you). Why is that scripture used to withdraw from an individual immediately rather than following Mathew18:15-17?
They do actually. I have first hand knowledge of this as my family member was withdrawn from. They don't just withdrawal from you without you knowing it is going to happen.
Some are withdrawn from and some have a get out of withdrawal free card. I have seen it go both ways some are favored but most are not. I was never a favored one and was withdrawn from, but after you come back from withdrawal you hold the stigma of an unworthy member. You must do everything you can to avoid being withdrawn from, if you value fellowship and respect.
Hey Anonymos Sept. 6 @10:12; Are you inferring that they will inform you and withdraw after they come to you alone, or after they bring one or two more Christians as witnesses; although there is the third option, when they inform you of the pending withdraw and bring you before the church to finalize the withdraw. Any one of these steps would seem to be contrary to the scripture as written in Mathew 18:15-17. When we follow one or two of the steps written in Mathew18:15-17 and (wink at) or (turn a blind eye to) the third step; are we acting according to Mathew 18:10 or not? Christ forewarns us that we are not to despise any of these little ones as he concludes with formatting the sequence for withdraw of a errant brother. Moreover, do we not become the Talebearer when any one of the steps in Mathew 18:15-17 fail to be followed? Please scriptural answers only. I'm tired of opinions and no scripture to back it up. I do surmise this maybe the problem to everyone's alleged complaint of oppressive teachers. If a teacher starts running ahead of everyone else in the congregation and having to confront his brother, the self imposed responsibility of keeping the Church clean could become burdensome to anyone (Remember Moses' father in-law)? But if he is held in check by the congregation; he no longer feels as though he has to bare the responsibility alone. Personal zeal can be good, but it can lead us and everyone else down a treacherous path of destruction. We all bear the responsibility when it comes to withdraw and making sure it follows all of scriptural protocol. After all mercy rejoices against judgment. I remember long ago a man was brought up for withdraw: The wife and daughter objected. words went back and forth and the withdraw was diverted. Unfortunately some thing came up in the following weeks and the wife and daughter could not make it to a class. Yeah, charges were reinstated and the man was withdrawn from. I still bare the regret and shame of not speaking up although I was still a babe at that time; what did I know. Unfortunately the alleged wrong the man did is today considered proper. Are we guilty of tale bearing or slandering the man. Any time one of the steps in Mathew 18:10-18 are not follow I personally feel we are doing a great disservice to God, The Church, our fellow brethren, and the teachers who do try to serve their office well in the church. If any one of us wink (turning a blind eye) at our role in the entire effort of justice in the church, could we be just as guilty as those we seem to complain about?
Could you please elaborate more. A family member was withdrawn from after that family member went and spoke to the teachers about something that happened. This person ask if it was wrong. They told the person yes it was a sin and withdrew. Mathew18:15 says to go to someone alone and if they repent you've gained your brother. if they refuse to repent then take one or two more and if the person repents again you have regained a brother from sin, But if they don't hear the two to three witnesses then bring the mater before the church if they refuse to hear the church then withdraw. All these steps were not followed. so again is it proper to skip any one of the steps in Math 18:15-17 and go directly to a withdraw.? Please give scripture for your position.
Typo error: It should read if the person repents, again you have regained a brother from sin. With out the comma between the "repent" and "again" it could be misunderstood.
Withdrawal is suppose to be used for helping a person to see their sin and repent from it. I have seen teachers use it to force members into subjection. In Stanton CA congregation the federal employee was the teaching preacher and he withdrew from everyone who disagreed with him. He was later brought up for withdrawal for oppression but was not withdrawn from, (the unspoken reason was because he was black and the mostly white congregation did not want to appear racist, he was able to hide his sin behind his skin color and my prayer was that God would break up the all black congregation in the south and send some righteous black brethren out west to help deal with the wicked black brethren so we do not appear racist.) His skin color was his get out of withdrawal free card. One man in Phoenix, a truck driver for Penzoil, beat his son black and blue, until the son ran away, a felony case of child abuse, and nothing was said or done about it, no withdrawal, no rebuke, no reproof, nothing. Why did he have a get out of withdrawal for free card is beyond me. There is no rhyme or reason as to how withdrawal is used, it differs from congregation, and from teacher to teacher.
Anonymous Sept. 8. Are you speaking about HB as the preacher in Stanton?
Not HB OC
I have known OC for very long time and his wonderful wife. They are very loving and wonderful people. So I am very surprised at your post. And no. I am no longer in the Stanton Churches of Christ.
I know many people love their teachers and preachers, but when you compare their behavior to the scriptures questions arise. I was under DS, the man who started the church in Prescott, and he was constantly dropping seeds about how badly he and others were treated by OC. It is not just me who holds a low opinion of OC, many do. People who commit crimes against children get no respect from me, and OC freely spoke of himself abusing his own children before he gave his public talk, this is common knowledge. I can bring my children to a church where crimes against children are ignored.
Should say "I cannot bring my children"
And to add about OC, he and his wife "borrowed" thousands of dollars from another Christian. She felt she couldn't say no as they were the teachers in her congregation. This was brought out in a talk, so those of you who doubt this can check into it. At the time, they hadn't paid her back and were not even attempting to pay her back. I don't know if they have since started making payments, and if they have repented and made amends or not.
And to the "anon" who suggested that we bring two or more witnesses when we accuse the Stanton group of wrong doing-all can be verified if you look around and really open your eyes. I know for a fact that ones are being rebuked without anyone going to them first. And I know for a fact that many times the rebuke was based on what ONE witness said they saw/heard. I know for a fact that many times the "accused" is not really accused, it is stated that they said/did the sinful thing, and a motive is often attributed to it. All without speaking to the individual first.
The excuse is that the person is not named. But you ask anyone in the congregation and they know exactly who was being rebuked.
There is no good excuse for this abuse. Matthew 18 is skipped entirely, teachers evil surmise about Christians. Christ came to mend relationships, not abuse each other. when you go to the scriptures, you can see that public rebukes were for very serious sins that could affect the church-such as when Paul rebuked Peter for causing Jewish Christians to withdraw themselves from their Gentile brethren!
Its been said in the congregations I was in that the teachers know you better than you know yourself. That is nonsense! They can guess at things, but they don't really know.
I agree, I saw individual teachers become "drunk" with power. WP, the teaching preacher from Albuquerque would assign motives to your actions that did not exists( this is called evil surmising) and then persecute you on the made up motive( that did not exist) There is no higher authority in a congregation than the teacher and they are free to abuse and use the church member and when you raise an objection you are told that they are worthy of "double honor" and are above question, reproof, and rebuke. When the evangelist would visit they would paint on the smile and pretend all was well. We were threatened in Phoenix by WP that if people did not stop calling the evangelists in SV and Greenville( I believe it was Greenville where TC was) that he would persecute those individuals out of the church. There is also no accounting of monies borrowed in the churches by older members from younger members. This is condoned by the teaching "how much of that money is for the brethren?"
Who is OC?
How do they make merchandise of you? let me count the ways: borrow money and never repay you, make a public complaint like " I don't know how I am going to pay my legal bills" and accept a babes inheritance to pay your legal expenses, my mother just died and instead of sending flowers just send the money, and many other methods. When freeloaders and the greedy find out how generous Christians are, even in their poverty, they come up with ingenious way to ask for money instead of working for it. The scriptures are clear in example: if you are a needy saint you need to go before the church and ask publicly for help, but if your not a needy saint then you need to work and save for life's expenses. One of the most difficult group of people to teach responsibility to is the recovering drug addicts. Drug addicts learn to try and get everything for free so they can spend their money on their drugs. They are welfare kings and queens, and they also constantly borrow without returning or repaying. They become a financial burden to any church. Freeloaders need to be told no often and taught to work. When the freeloaders tries to use guilt trips to extort money from church members (like you don't love me) they should be taught that if you don't work you don't eat. Debt is a sign of overspending, savings is a sign of underspending. When you loan money to a church member in debt you are making them worse not better: DON'T LOAN MONEY!
On Friday, September 11, 2015 2:59 PM, david stankowski ; You all complain of teachers and preachers. Do you do so in the name of Christ? Yes, Give them double honor and if they transgress the commandments of God go to them privately, If they repent, you have gained your brother. Answer me, For what does tail bearing accomplish? If you haven't done the above as yet; ask yourselves this; why are we judging our brother? Do we do the same thing? Do you Evil surmise? Do you abuse others? abuse Children? What is the different between old school discipline and disciplining in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? A slap acrose the face was done in Christ's days. Was a red mark left on the child's face? How long did the hand print remained on the childs face? Switching? How big a switch, stick, Branch? God did not designate, or did He? He Gave the responsibility of teaching a child and discipline to the parents. Does God hear your prayers? He will if you follow what he says! So stop complaining and do his will. If your child has been abused by someone in the Church, You can do two things; 1) take it to the person in question. If they don't hear you, take with you one or two more. etc. 2) If it is definitely abuse first seek medical attention for the child. Answer all the doctors questions honestly and go from there. Remember you are not taking a brother or a sister to the unjust for judgment; You are seeking medical attention for the child; but if the medical professional sees it as abuse, then they will start an investigation. Keep that child with you at all times for safety reasons even at class. When the City or State authorities are finished with their investigation you will be notified. One of my children once was disciplined by a preacher while my wife was pursuing a divorce from me. When the child arrived at my home for visitation, I seen welts up and down his legs. The child told me he was punished for lying to his mother. A preacher had to rush over the moms home to rush a 2-3 year old sibling to hospital. The older sibling age 5-6 told mommy that the younger child drank all the medicine, because he seen an empty bottle in his sisters hands. The 5 year old assumed the wrong thing but had his little sister best interests at heart. The preacher learned (taught) him a lesson didn't he? (Proverbs6:13 He winks with his eyes, he speaks with his feet, he teaches with his fingers) Winking is turning a blind eye to something like scriptural protocol or the facts of an alleged crime, see Psalms35. Speaking with ones feet is being mischievous as a talebearer. To teach with ones fingers, you need to see 1kings12:3-19 Rehoboam"s little finger would be as his father's thigh. Coming down unmercifully on someone. It is accomplished by people in authority sometimes, but can be something as simple as going around telling people of someone else's fault thus giving them a bad reputation. That is why I try to caution you all about talking of alleged faults of others unless all four steps in Mathew 18:15-17 are followed first. This is why Paul said in 1Corinthians5:1 "It is reported commonly that there is (a sinner) among you. It was reported commonly because the fault was addressed as Jesus directed in Mathew 18:15-17. All four steps were followed. If during any one of those steps the person says they repent; forgive. See Luke17:1-5. Yes indeed "Increase our faith" Oh Lord.
Well David you missed the point: there is no justification for child abuse. The wicked teacher and preachers control the one true church and do not receive any reproof from any member. To welt up a five year old is beyond cruelty; there is no natural affection in a person that does such things. WP, the preacher from Albuquerque was in Phoenix for over ten years and spread discord most of the time. I know you love WP, and you should being a fornicator; because he made life very comfortable for fornicators and adulterers here in Phoenix and probably in Albuquerque too. I have no respect left for WP; and his wife PP was one of the women teaching to spank your children 100 times. The abuse in "the one true church" shows a complete lack of natural affection for children and for you not to see that tells me that you are greatly deceived. 1Cor6:9 be not deceived neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers… you stated that you had committed fornication with a female at a youth hostel, youth usually means children but I will give you some benefit of the doubt maybe it was an adult counselor you had your relationship with. But to defend such evil is incomprehensible to me.
David, the Bible agrees with your council that you gave. It is very sound and void of the bitter poison and false accusations I see in the writings of Anonymous Sept. 13. Also David I will be your second witness for the good character of WP, he is a very just and good preacher, this I know for a fact. I can testify to the goodness of his character and am sorry this blog provides opportunity for terrible things to be said in this anonymous fashion. Many very good Christians have been evil spoken of here and I am saddened by this. Good work David S.
David, I did as the scriptures dictate in that I went to them, then I took it to others, and eventually to the two Evangelists. Since I had no preacher/teacher status I was treated like I didn't know what I was talking about. TC basically told me I was a biusybody. I spent years trying to convey what was going on, but it was just ignored and covered up.
The congregation I came from was greatly know for having a lack of love towards brethren. Before I came back in 2000 it was trying to be dealt with, but nobody would fix it.
One of the greatest evidences of this is a talk that TC did titled, "Don't forget then in the Valley". TC admits on there that he didn't have the mind to help out brethren when they were in their times of need. He states that his wife would ask him to do things for brethren that she knew they needed help on and couldn't fathom the act. He states that he was no wired to do that.
We are part of a congregation so that we can help each other, but there is to much indifference to see that we all need each other. And when you do go to them for help they label you as selfish. Now, I'm not talking about giving money. I am talking about when our brethren are sick and you call them to share the classes with them, when they need our help physically and/or spiritually. The scriptures dictate what we are to do,
Matt. 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
In the congregation I came from your were labeled selfish if you looked for this from your brethren and there were a lot of them who were indifferent from this.
I've stated on here what my infirmities and disability are and I was greatly castigated from my preachers and teachers for not living up to their expectations in not pushing my flesh enough. Their version of helping is constantly telling you are wrong for not pushing as hard as they think you should and constantly comparing you to other people. It got to the level to where a lot of classes, sermons, and a talking in another state my not pushing hard enough was the crux of their theme.
It is a lot easier to tell people to push and berate them than to take the time and actually do what the scriptures above teach and require us to do.
I brought to TC that one of our preachers murmured in a sermon against counseling that was given to me by TC's wife and even TC just ignored it. In that sermon I was laid out for following that counseling and counseling was belittled by the preacher. Nothing was done no matter how many times and people I brought it to.
I was told that I wasn't a man of God, on a sermon, because I wouldn't let my brethren just show up at my house any time they felt like no matter how many times I asked if the could be cordial and call first because of my disability and meds that I was taken. When you say that I have sinned in this then you made this a law as a sin is the transgression of a law. This was also ignored by TC when I said it to him personally.
I don't think these preachers and teachers are considering the fact that we are commanded to treat each other a certain way and be there for each other nor that we are going to be judged by these things on judgement day. I would rather be a sheep than a goat.
Be patient with me please, Lynn mm I will try to explain after. Read in the book of Numbers Chapter5 Verse 11 thru 31. What say you on these writings from God? Please be clear in your explanation.
David, I think you will find that most of the people who post here know and understand and believe the scriptures that you are sharing. Though I'm not sure what Numbers has to do with what Lynn and others are talking about concerning the conduct of teachers and preachers in the congregations.
But what I do know is that, for whatever reason, you are not understanding that ones here are NOT accusing these teachers/preachers, we are sharing actual experiences! And while the wrongful and sinful behavior of some teachers/preachers is not a reflection of all, the fact that they go on doing these things is.
When you point to those of us who are sharing these experiences and asking if we followed the scriptures (two or more witnesses, taking it to ones as mandated in scripture) we have to ask-are you? When ones are rebuked in your congregation, are you asking the ones doing the rebukes the same questions? Are you asking if they took it to the one being rebuked one on one? If so, what that person's response? Do you then ask if the accuser took another with them and talked to the accused? If so, what was their response? Were there two or more witnesses to the event the person is being accused of?
None of us here have a problem with the scriptures, what we have a problem with is that they are NOT being followed. Christians are being charged and convicted without the proper evidence, and often for offenses not sinful.
For instance, when my husband and I moved, how was that a sin? Especially when the teacher/preacher counselled it was not only ok to do so, but that he was considering doing it too? No one came forwards to talk to us about it, not even him. We heard nothing until we were publically rebuked. No scripture was given, no explanation as to how it was sin. And our experience is not the only one.
So instead of challenging ones here on this site to follow scriptures, I challenge you to challenge your teachers! After the next rebuke, go to them privately and ask those same questions you are asking ones here-did they follow the scripture in Matthew? Were there two or more witnesses? You should have no difficulty in doing this if your teachers are really faithful Christians!
You ask good questions, just to the wrong people!!
Thank you Debbie, I couldn't have put it better.
David – even though we can forgive those trespass against us, the constant barrage of not handling things correctly by the teachers and teachers can cause a lot of ill will from those who are suffering these things. Whether right or wrong in the ill feelings, God will still hold the offenders accountable. What some would like to see are the preachers and teachers to stop and consider these things. Instead of trying to be right in their ability to be able deal with others in this manner they need to stop and realize that they are dealing with the people of God and they are actually hurting his people.
I couldn't agree more. Harass, oppress, and abuse are three words that epitomize the teaching methods during my time in "the one true church." Some on this blog use the minimization of wrong doing to manipulate you away from the awful truth of what goes on in the churches saying things like "a slap across the face was done in Christ's day" well adultery, murder through crucification, was also done in Christ's day. To say something happened in Christ's day does not make it acceptable then or now. I am dealing with children who have grown to adulthood and will have nothing to do with anything related to christianity due to the abuse they received by church babysitters. How many of the "church children" have grown up and gotten baptized? How many have outright reject God altogether? Wisdom is justified of her children (LU7:35) and from what I see the condoning of abuse is just plain stupid in the first place and the teachers and preacher who did this are worse than fools.
Lynn, After reading all of your writings and complaints concerning the leadership of the Stanton Churches of Christ it appears to be a matter of judgment concerning how needy are you. You are asking for this body of believers resources to accommodate your weaknesses and they do have a serious right to access your needs. If they don't agree with you, in some way, then you have the power and the right to separate yourself from that body and attach yourself to another body who you are more compatible to. And be at peace within yourself instead of entering into constant complaint. This isn't good for your soul.
Debbie, you appear to be riding the white charger of defense here for the perceived down trodden. David S. offered scriptures to help Lynn. You offered excuses for his complaint. While that method looks good for the short haul it doesn't heal the wounds of the bitterness of heart. Be careful of the kind of medicine you are applying. Being a nurse you should be able to evaluate this situation with a better eye.
Anonymous :September16 at 10:47 am: Sorry you are offended by my perceived defense of the down trodden, as that is the example my Lord set for us when he came. (Even the scriptures teach us that!). But my post was not about defending Lynn, nor did I offer any "excuses for his complaint". What I was doing was pointing out that David was preaching to the choir here. Most of us here would love to see the Stanton Group following the scriptures, especially when it comes to bringing perceived sin to Christians. We would love to see the group repent of the evil surmising and the false accusing.
If you go back and read my post, you should be able to see that I was speaking of the conduct of the teachers/preachers in the congregations.
But since you brought it up, I am appalled by the lack of love and compassion you and David are showing toward Lynn. That lack of love doesn't heal the wounds of bitterness of heart, nor does it heal broken relationships. And personal attacks of individuals don't prove your point either, instead it reveals your true heart. And all done under the name of Anonymous!
Slap across the face! I was neither justifying nor condemning the issue. I was actually trying to show with 4 billion people on the planet one just does not define what is and is not child abuse and set it into a package all so nice and neat. Otherwise any time a mother covers a child's mouth trying to hush the child and begins to tap the child's vocals, ( yeah, You know, when we start hearing this whaaa(silence)whaaa(silence)whaaa(silence)… ect.) somebody, somewhere, could turn and say a tap on the mouth is a slap in the face! Have you ever read "A child called it". I thought I was reading excerpts from my own childhood. Including the thing with the ammonia. Read it! There is the starting point for what child abuse is. Anyway, I found by simply commenting when a child is taken out or afterwards, something to discourage the harshness; the paddling seemed to cease for awhile. Today I seldom hear a child screaming while the paddle is swinging. For that matter I don't see many paddles these days. Shelly Ziegler is a wonderful example of rearing children. I don't remember how many children she has, but there are quit a few of them in the church and seemingly doing fine. If I had any questions about children I would ask her. But God did say, He will build his church, and the congregations are still works in the making. I can not answer for all the perceived Diotrephes there may be in the congregations. I can only tell you when I was cast out of a church, I did like David did in the book of 1Samual; ( I would not recommend this for all who like their comforts of home.) I went to another congregation. The teaching at the time was one did not go away from their home congregation unless they are sent. So When asked why are you here? Tacoma, Des Moines, Riverdale, Erie, Denver, Albuquerque, I explain to them honestly what happened. I explained I was put out and denied reentry in that one congregation and told by the teacher, You can go anywhere else but here. The first three thousand miles was an adventure and I did pretty good. I don't know why God put up with all my belly fretting. Long sleepless nights, Sleeping out at -20 below, Howling, not really sure if that was dogs or wolves as I came down the Alcan Highway. I think I might have caused an Evangelist to run off a road in Montana during a freak snowstorm in late June, early July once, accidently of course. Did I stopped, No! I couldn't see a thing in front of me, much less beside me or behind me. I was in a White tractor trailer with blue trim. I thought if I stopped he would creep right pass me and I would be behind him again. I heard the story later from the evangelist, but I was in withdraw at the time. Anyway I was received in all the congregations I came to.That was over thirty years ago. As far as the disciplining of children; That teaching has heard the cries of the children. Maybe you could resoundify that teaching like others have done. Just be careful of "Raca" (Speaking disrespectfully). In Numbers5:11-31 the husband dealt with his problem respectfully, where as the young man in Deuteronomy22:13-19 brought up his problem in an disrespectful way. Oh by the way do you remember what happens to people who owed large debts to another? Servitude was available. Guess who had the contract on the young man who ran his mouth? You Got it! Dear old Daddy-in-law. Yes sirry. The wife's father owned this boy for at least until the day of jubilee. Could anyone else have done better? An act of disrespect just reaps us more and more troubles. So, Trust the word of God; he will help us; when we have respect unto all his commandments. There is a lot more to say about Numbers5:11-31. It lead me right into Mathew5:20, Mathew18:10 if I read it right.
AnonymousSeptember 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM
There is a real problem when Christians look to their brethren for help in sharing scriptures of what classes they missed, spending time with them to exhort one another, and being empathetic to their infirmities as being needy. Usually the ones that think this way are really just indifferent to being their for their brethren like we are commanded to be. Regardless of what you think of those who are in need of any kind you will stand before God as a goat and be judged for you indifference towards your brethren.
Instead of brethren bearing one another's burdens they chose rather to castigate those who were not living up to their expectations. I.e. If you missed time because there is a serious physical disability you have you got called out by visits, phone call, in classes, and sermons for not pushing your flesh enough and they would let it be known to everybody that you were not accepting teaching if you didn't live up to their expectations.
The "access your needs" isn't as grand as you would believe it to be. I wasn't looking for money or great physical acts. I was looking for empathy and spiritual guidance. If this is to much for preachers and teachers to do then they don't belong in those position. Anybody in the congregation that doesn't help their brethren in these situation is going to held accountable for it by God.
David to answer your question directly: a woman here in Phoenix slapped her 14 year old so hard that she left a bruise in the shape of her hand print on the boy's face(and W.P. said nothing and did nothing) The snowball effect was this: if J.G. and O.C. can slap their children in the face and talk about it publicly and the evangelist in S.V. says nothing and does nothing then it is okay for me too and every one else to start slapping their children around. When a teacher sets an example, good or bad, other will follow. When one young christian from Boise committed fornication here in Phoenix the only thing that happened was W.P. and his wife P.P. was to say EWWW look at her! No withdrawal, no anti-fornication lessons. This sent the clear message that nothing will happen to those who commit fornication/adultery. Then a woman committed adultery and they told her that's okay honey, you have to five weeks in withdrawal and then you can come back, again no anti-adultery lesson, no rebuke just a pathetic retort from W.P. that Sunday he said "are you happy now?" and then a Texican man committed adultery on his diabetic wife and little was done. Then some one dumped a body on W.P. front lawn and his youngest son was on the evening news here in Phoenix talking about it. W.P. sold his house and moved out of Phoenix as fast as he could. False teacher should not be defended, they need to be identified and run out of the church: Revelations 2:20 that woman Jezebel and in Phoenix it was :that man Jezebel. David I am going to pray for you, that God give you the moral strength to stand up for yourself and your family to start fighting against the false teachers in the one true church.
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, … desire the sincere milk of the word.
I placed a blog earlier on here inquiring what you taught on withdraw (as anonymous) and no one responded with scriptures. Opinions, opinions and more opinions is what is being broadcasted here. Again, I'll try not to give my opinion, but perhaps assuage your grief. 1Peter2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"…. "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded"…. "but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed",… "A stone of stumbling, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:" So come out from amongst them which walk disobedient unto Jesus Christ. verse15) "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may (may) put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16) as free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" Welcome to the high calling of God, brother. "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." verse 19) " For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience towards God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20) For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? But if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God". 21 even heretofore were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us , leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." You need to read these scriptures, Study these scriptures, meditate on these scriptures. Pray God to inspire you into obeying these scriptures and then so DO. Americans call this Blood, sweat, and tears. Please reread 1Peter2:1-25. How long have we to sit in Christianity asking God do this for me and do that; oh please punish him and bless me? I had to come to the realization God is not my servant. The covenant I made with him in the water of baptism was to be his servant. 1Peter3:10-15 "For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11) let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace , and ensue it." … "sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:" 17) for it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." Mathew10:16-17 ; 24-26…. Mathew 11:6 Blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." for further blessings see Mathew5:1-12. Remember ye are the salt of the earth so pick up the feeble knees and lay aside the sin that so easily besets us. (sorry I have got to go for now)
Well David I have to ask: if you saw a house on fire would you call the fire dept? or is that talebearing? if you saw a grown man hurting a five year old child would you protect and defend that child or would you get in your truck and drive away? Wait I think you answered that already. Milk is for babes, we are all spiritual adults here and the study has been done and the understanding obtained now is the time to act. If you fail to protect and defend your own children from predators you children and wife will not respect nor love you. You seem to follow the behavior of W.P. the preacher from Albuquerque: when there is a problem run away. Why did W.P. fall away in Albuquerque? he thought he was going to be withdrawn from and the next day when he found out that he was not going to be withdrawn from he wanted to come back and be the teaching preacher again, what a coward. When W.P. son was arrested here in phoenix for dealing drugs what did W.P. do? He abandoned his son, what a coward! And after W.P. had corrupted the COC in Phoenix through fornication and adultery and God said no more what did he do? He ran away. David stop following the cowardly example of W.P. stop running away from your problems and start being a father to you children, and stop defending those who have abused the children and their brethren, become a shepherd to those who can't protect themselves from the wolves.
Fornication and Adultry? WP? I don't think so.You had better check you facts a little better.
To concerned on September 20 at 12:16: Sarcasm does not become you. We all make mistakes with the keyboard. The Anon on September 16 at 10:47 said "access" when I'm sure he meant "assess". Debby said "forwards" when I'm sure she meant forward. No need to use sarcasm. And don't deny it, I can see exactly what you wrote.
I Agree with Concerned and David S. While I have disagreed with the church on issues, I am indignant and angry that my disagreement is used to fuel others vindictive vendettas. I disagreed with the church and was willing to give four years of my life to be withdrawn from, and even consented to be peacefully excommunicated. If you are not willing to openly protest to them, then quit whining to the rest of us. There is not anything that I have said here that I have not said publicly to them.
It is unfortunate that those who have a host of their own problems are allowed to denigrate, despise, and denounce the men and women in the Stanton Church of Christ. I can honestly say, despite my differences, and allowing for the fact that I have been wrong before, they are the best people I have met in my life. I can honestly say I love them despite not being allowed to speak with any of them for seven years.
David and Concerned, you have concern about the issues and resolve to let Almighty God handle it, and you are to be commended. While the grievances that have been discussed are sometimes valid, I think they would pale in contrast to what each of us has erred in in our own lives. A basic truth is no one harms any of us more than we harm ourselves with our own wrong choices. If any of us did what we knew was wrong, then that one act is worse than the combined injustices of every human who ever mistreated us, regardless of the degree.
As far as child abuse is concerned, it is sickening to see anyone recommend going to the government with this. We have the worst president in American history in office, who claims he is a Christian but openly celebrates homosexual marriage, and why anyone would advise relying on him and the courts which advocated this horrible evil is beyond belief.
The church has very effectively dealt with child abuse. Far better than the civil authorities. I personally know of people who have done certain things, and thanks to the churches intervention, not only was the government kept out, after all they are massive sinners themselves, but the individual was reformed so completely that they are pillars of light today, and spreading the gospel effectively to the lost.
I was raised in the church. The happiest years of my life were spent with the people in the church. My parents gave their lives to raise us, and I am highly offended and indignant that those who have impure lives themselves could have the temerity of accusing the church of being some kind of child abusing institution. I was treated with kindness, with love, and with joy all that I can remember. My childhood was very similar to "Little House on the Prairie" and "Little women". Not only did none of the Christians drink, do drugs, or have sex outside of marriage, and if they were it was publicly addressed, but they denied themselves even material comforts, and sacrificed their lives for us, their children. So it is offensive to see people point fingers who are either ignorant of what was going on, or if they were mistreated, are ignorant of their own wrongs that God has forgiven them of, and are thereby unable to forgive. Only those who have been forgiven can forgive others. "Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted".
Well Martin Luther you covered all on my concerns I have accumulated in this blog. And you addressed it from your own observations and experience. Even more important you are speaking from the place of forgiveness and not bitterness. Love you brother.
Martin Luther, you said, "It is unfortunate that those who have a host of their own problems are allowed to denigrate, despise, and denounce the men and women in the Stanton Church of Christ.".
This is a classic defense that I have seen to be prominent in the church. Whenever something is brought up that is being done wrong the defense, to many times, is that the one bringing the offense is attacking the offender.
This has been brought up here before that it seems that some people, in the congregations, are allowed to get away with some things that others are not. I have seen where certain members are given exceptions to act certain ways without recourse, but if any transgressions, they do, are brought out it is turned to the one bringing it out as though they are attacking, being hard on, etc. the offender.
I was told, one time by some of the older ones, that when other brethren do things that offend me that I am just supposed to take it and ignore it. This takes away from the teaching of so many scriptures that instruct us on how to deal with these types of situations.
It seems, to many leaders, that the best way to deal with brethren, who display a lack of love and empathy, is to turn it back on them if they dare to say anything by claiming they are attacking the offenders.
to: ConcernedSeptember 21, 2015 at 8:32 AM
Yes, forgiveness is key when we are transgressed against, but what people are trying to convey here is not a single transgression, but that these are situations that have become part of the churches teachings and actions that are continual. Not only has the church transgressed against me, in certain ways, but continue to transgress against me and other people in the same manners. So, this isn't just a one time thing. It has become their ways of handling things. I believe that the point of this blog is not just to point out who I was offended against, but to show that these practices have been a part of the church and are still a part of the church.
For my soul's sake and for the love of God I have forgiven my brethren, but I could not stay there as their actions were not repented of and it was just to unbearable to keep myself and my family in this situation.
Lynn you are referring to the bully/victim tactic used by oppressors. The oppressors bully their brethren but when you call them on it they play the victim accusing you of treating them wrong. It is one of many manipulations used by the wicked.
Your not listening Lynn.
I'm not familiar with any successful people in history or in the Bible who successfully spent time complaining about how they were mistreated. The issue at hand is the unscriptural teachings and the effects they have on others. If anyone had grounds to say they were mistreated, it would have been Joseph, but instead of talking about how badly he was done by, and he was treated worse than you or I ever will be, he turned to God. It's funny because an adulterous president of the United States actually has a lot to teach us. John F. Kennedy was completely right when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". The 100/0 principle is applicable. In every relationship we give 100% and ask for nothing in return, and watch what happens. Typically, humans respond how they are treated.
Generally, this site is to address the roots of behaviors, not individual complaints of what was done to them. As humans we are all selfishly biased from birth. The trick is to learn enough about our world to be able to objectively address issues instead of subjectively thinking about how other people treat me.
I guarantee none of us will miss heaven because of how we were mistreated.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"
This has gotten old as it was used to countermand actually helping brethren who are really in need of help. To many times people try to dismiss the truth by exaggerating their defense. You just can't cloak all points with one judgement. This is done with statements that concern not following teaching, not taking instruction, being selfish, etc.
When we are in need of counsel, have questions, exhortation, support, or anything that we need help with spiritual wise? Our leaders and brethren. So, it is being considered as being selfish if I turn to them in these manners of help? What happens if they are doing it wrong or not all? Are we just supposed to just sit back and figure it out ourselves?
I was called selfish because I was looking to my brethren for spiritual help and they chose rather to be indifferent. When you teach this from the pulpit you will see congregation follow suit. Our congregation was indifferent to the things that are spelled out in Matt 25 and call you selfish if you look to them for any of the underlined reasons.
Now what you have is a congregation is useless to each other. A long with the indifference there is preferring. How can I come to this congregation and get the spiritual guidance, counsel, and help if I am called indifferent to look for it?
Eventually it got to the point I quit going to the leaders for counsel and questions. I actually was castigated in a sermon for following PC's counseling. Then it kept being brought out that I was wrong for no longer going to church leadership for counseling.
This is a lot different that Joseph and his brothers. The problems that we face in our congregations those who are leading in the mistreatment are the ones that we rely on in the church leadership. How can we keep going to a congregation that doesn't repent of these things and their tactics are ingrained in how they deal with us?
If you read what everybody is saying you will see that a lot of people are speaking of the same things. The lack of love and indifference that is so prevalent in to many congregations and all people are doing are relaying why and what constitutes the lack of love and indifference.
Look at this this way, if I stay in a congregation that is treating people like this then I am condoning what they are doing.
Well said Lynn! There are many differences between the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as with Joseph and us today. For one, Joseph had no one he could go to. For another, it wasn't religious leaders/teachers that did evil to him, it was his own flesh and blood and people who weren't Jewish and didn't know God.
In the New Testament whom did Christ rebuke the most often? The Religious leaders, the teachers! Why? Because they were treating their people with love, proper respect and judgment? Not hardly! And being Religious leaders, they were suppose to know how to act.
Its the same with the Stanton group. The teachers/leaders should know how to treat others, and they are held to a higher standard. But that doesn't mean they will be righteous in executing their responsibilities, nor repent of their wrong doing.
In this group, there is no "policing" of the teachers. When they call out for counsel about an individual, the teacher they are speaking to doesn't even question the account they are given. They instantly believe the account they are being told of.
And teachers are not really given any instruction on how to teach! They just simply become a teacher! There are no checks and balances, no way to report things.
Perhaps May meeting should be spent on instructing "teachers" on how to teach? Maybe there should be some type of reporting system in place, and follow ups done. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but at least would be something!
But what you will find is what you are seeing here on this blog-the offended is attacked!! Essentially called babies and whiners, and told to put on the big boy/girl pants!
So the wrongfully accused are just suppose to sit every day and say nothing while being falsely accused of all kinds of things? They can go privately to the teacher but the teacher can say anything publically? And the offended/accused is just suppose to go on in their daily life as though nothing is wrong. They are suppose to smile and look forward to coming to every class and worship, knowing how they are going to be mis-treated? And do this for years?
And if they decide to leave, they are further falsely accused of going because they "don't want to work out their salvation or give up their sin!"
In our congregation, the one common reason most of the teen left was because they saw " the Christians don't love each other. They act like they hate each other." I know because I asked them!
Some of your posts show that I am not wrong, and that it is still going on today. So sorry to see that, I was hoping that one day things might be different.
In a talk that TC did he told of an account where he was involved in a traffic altercation that was not his fault and the officer only cited him. He fought it in court only to lose by the judge telling him that even though he was in the right he has to side with his officers to help them maintain authority in the field.
I experienced TC doing this to me when I brought out to him something the congregation said that I was doing and he automatically sided with them. The whole counseling meeting and Sunday sermon was sided with the teachers.preachers before it even began. No matter what evidence I had it was preordained to believe them over me because I had no status. I have seen this happen to other people too since I came in in 1983.
***But what you will find is what you are seeing here on this blog-the offended is attacked!! Essentially called babies and whiners, and told to put on the big boy/girl pants!
So the wrongfully accused are just suppose to sit every day and say nothing while being falsely accused of all kinds of things?***
I agree greatly with this. This is why I could get nowhere with what was going on. The leaders will discredit you to the congregation by claiming that you are disobedient and not taking teaching if you don't give into what they are saying. I believe a lot escalated towards me because I wouldn't stand for it and tried to do something about it. I had to be very careful not to get myself withdrawn from, because that is how they shut people up. I may not have been a preacher, but I know my bible very well and know what was going on was wrong. That is why I think they tried so hard to discredit me to the congregation. They poisoned the minds of the congregation that I was disobedient, but could never present one biblical sin that I was committing. Their accusations were always that I refused teaching, wouldn't counsel, wouldn't let brethren show up at my house any time of day they want without calling, I didn't love my brethren because I didn't like the crux of most of their conversations be about them trying to convince me to push my flesh, and that I wasn't pushing my flesh as much as they think I should.
Those were my sins to my brethren.
I got a long great with the teens of my congregation and some of the teens from other congregations. I wasn't a phony and treated them with respect. I heard from some of the teenagers that they were leaving the church because they didn't like the way I was being treated. One of them actually questioned his mother about it and she said because I am not pushing myself as much as they want. If you look at how many teens have not become Christians in Tacoma you could see for yourself. There is one preacher who has like nine kids and none of them have become a Christian.
Lynn, do you believe the Stanton Churches of Christ are the true Churches of Christ?
I was brought in the off Church of Christ since I was a child in Arizona, Texas, and WA state. I have been to a lot of other religious organizations trying to find the truth. Since coming to the SCC I have learned the bible a lot. I did what they kept reiterating in studying the bible for myself. I believe the SCC to be the closest to the truth that I could find.
My opinion on this, due to experience, is that there is a lot of truth in them, but they are not following the scriptures in too many ways. Just as the scripture says, "holding the truth in unrighteousness". You can have the truth and teach the truth, but fail in how you apply it to yourself and to others.
I also believe that there are those in the churches that are walking in robes of white. By their fruits you can know them. It is a great contradiction to see how some brethren and leaders graceful in their walk while others are abusive and destructive in the same church let a lone congregation. PC is entirely different than TC. I have relayed it in examples here and have heard it in the talk, "Don't forget them in the Valley". I have this talk in my library.
I also believe that these churches may be in the same jeopardy as the seven churches in Asia, if they don't repent.
If Corrie Ten Boom, could forgive her Nazi Captors who put her father to death in the Concentration camps in Germany, then there are a lot of people on here who need to put their big boy and big girl pants on and grow up. We are not celebrating at your pity party. Anyone who has had one, should have learned by now, they do absolutely nothing. Failure, whether it is ours or a failure of others to treat us justly, is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently. If someone has mistreated you, and I have been mistreated, understand this should heighten your resolve to never mistreat another human. Take it like Joseph did, I'm pretty confident no one on here was abused as badly as he was by his brothers. Sold into slavery, and yet he did what a lot of people don't do. He didn't try to play God, he turned it over to God and God delivered him, and I don't see the slightest hint of resentment or bitterness from him. Unforgiveness and bitterness is not only evil, it is bad for our health, our productivity, and our emotional state.
Love overlooks a multitude of wrongs. The measure of our love is not whether others mistreated us or not, it is how we respond when others mistreat us. Are we strong enough to love them still, or do we whine and insist on treating them as they treated us. Christianity is not a religion demanding others treat us a certain way, it is a religion demanding we treat others a certain way, no matter what.
Amen, well said.
Then why wasn't this the mentality of Jesus to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation?
You are right in that if anybody offends us we pray for them, forgive them, and let it go, but when this behavior is the crux of the leaders in a congregation how can you be exhorted let a lone respect them?
I have seen this to many times where people are more fixated on how the offended react to mistreatment rather than those who are doing the mistreating. This is a classic deflective defense. As long as this is how these things are being handled the offenders will keep offending and many times these are the leaders that we are to be learning from.
It is hard for those who have not been though this to understand or be empathetic, but it is so hard to sit in church and listen to those who are mistreating you. It is hard to have this mistreatment spill over to the rest of the congregation and you are eventually treated like a withdrawn member because most of the congregation is following the mistreatment of the leaders.
This isn't an isolated incident, but a continual treatment that has gone for years. There is no repentance from the offenders as it is still continual.
Our big pants were on when we followed scripture by bringing it to the offenders, then to witnesses, and then before others only to have it turned back on the offended. We still followed scripture when we distanced ourselves from the offenders as they fulfilled this scripture – mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
If you feel you have suffered wrongfully, then get withdrawn from speaking out against the injustices you perceive. If you are not willing to suffer for others wrongs, I'm having a hard time understanding the spirit of Christ in this.
We are told to go the Second Mile. Here is the Second Mile defined.
http://play.simpletruths.com/movie/the-second-mile/st-sa/
The child did not grumble, he did what he was told and made his enemy his friend. We all have different attitudes, and I am grateful to be on this site because it is by seeing some attitudes that may not be right, and comparing them to my own that I learn my own may need some adjusting.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
We are told to sit there and take it from them. I did this –
Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Over a space of around five years I took it and did this.
When church leadership is mistreating members, lying, and making classes and sermons their avenue to keep up the abuse you have to ask yourself how can you sit in this congregation and get the exhortation you need?
You also have to ask yourself if you are truly grasping the understanding that God doesn't condone this type of abuse towards his people. People are so focused on the recipient's reactions that they completely ignore the abuse against another child of God.
Finally, to really address the idea that the church should report child abuse to the government, are we even aware of what the government is up to these days? Personally, no child was ever abused on my watch, and never will be. When even the hint of it came to me it was verified promptly and dealt with to where it never had the chance of occurring again. Who on this blog does not recognize Christians do not go to government against fellow Christians? If you don't you don't understand Pauls passage in Corinthians forbidding this. Obviously if someone came in packing a gun, or insisted on disrupting classes calling the police would be in order. Who is going to heal a sinner, the church or the government? When we have a government which in the state of Oregon permits a 15 year old to go to school and have a sex change operation without their parents permission, what kind of ignoramus would we be to trust said government with the children of the church?
Don't we understand the government is full of sinners who, unlike Christians, don't even acknowledge they have sin, and are thereby slaves to it? Now every one of us is a slave of sorts. Some are slaves to righteousness, and some to wickedness, and our daily choices tell us who our master is. Does it make sense to see a slave of evil commit an offense, and go run and tell another slave of evil? Exactly what are they going to do, I'd like to know. Get Child Protective Services involved? Really? So they can place the child in some god forsaken place that potentially can rival the environment Orphan Annie was in? Can someone please point out the logic in that?
Perhaps I don't know how to address child abuse because I saw so little of it. My parents were withdrawn from for the same reason Adrian Peterson was suspended, though they weren't anywhere near as severe. They spanked their kids. Interesting to note that not one of us 18 is a drug addict, alcoholic, in prison, and furthermore some are becoming doctors, nurses, lawyers, business owners, and architects. Spanking is a form of chastening, and chastening is to make chaste. Anyone who knows about the military knows about how discipline is essential. Anyone who is a Christian recognizes God disciplines only his children, and if he does not, he says it is because we are bastards. So are we advocating making our children bastards by refusing to discipline them when it is called for? Let me make a distinction. There is a difference in disciplining a rebellious, and willful child, and a parent who had a bad day and is taking it out on a child. I am not advocating the latter. I used to hear parents speak strongly to their children, and whip them when it was called for. I resolved that I wouldn't ever spank my kids while I could help it. While I am childless (so were the foremost teachers in Christianity on the topic of children in the NT, for those who are experience Nazis), the fact is I have watched kids develop into perfect tyrants when they are not disciplined. Our society is full of the entitled, spoiled brats, who were not corrected when they were young, and so now they are trying to correct our society on our beliefs in the sanctity of marriage, on the evils of porn, on the danger of drugs, and on the uselessness of Christian beliefs. We have a president who is a perfect example. The worst president in our nations history, by far, and he had no father to correct him, lead him, inspire him, and give him an example. It is kind of sad, I read his book "Dreams of my father", and in retrospect, it is a lament, though Obama didn't intend for it to be, for what he did not have, and the missing part of his life that has contributed so much to his current broken belief system.
If I were to suborn (Anonymous Sept9, 7:33) to report a fellow Christian for slapping their own child to the authorities, I believe I would be in contradiction to 1stCorinthians6:1-8. That is why I said in an earlier blog, If you believe your (your) child was abused take it to the brother first. I don't intend to repeat all that I said previously. Follow scriptural protocol. Now to (Anonymous) Sept20,6:58am< Reporting a fire is not reporting someone else's fault. Therefore reporting a fire is not tale bearing. Please pray God may inspire you to understanding scripture, He gives liberally. If that doesn't help, you may wish to examine the integrity of your baptism. Where you baptized in the Church of Christ? To answer your question; would I defend another? I have, many of times. In Maryland, twice in Washington State, More than once in Albuquerque,(I was confronted many times in Albuquerque). The Lord delivered me every time. Except once when I ran my mouth. Yeah talebaring, We were friends. The mans wife called the store where we worked and ask for Cleese. I told her he just left the store with two young ladies. Oops! I forgot he told me about his infidelity earlier. He was a big fella from around Harlem, worser part of the city than were I grew up. I knew immediately why God withdrew his protection as I hit the floor. So, Why did God allow me so many confrontations? I don't Know. Maybe it had to do with the prayer I prayed to Him After I escorted a lady from the Hostle in Albuquerque to downtown a couple of blocks away. Some fella walking toward us and as he passed suddenly swung at me. The lady didn't know what question to ask first, but did ask, How did you know he was going to swing? I didn't, but a feeling in me suggested something wasn't right and my mom taught me good agility. Later I thanked God for his deliverance and (yeah) I had to ask Him. Lord this time the situation worked out ok, In that the man kept walking away. What do I do if someone doesn't walk away? I had previously promise not to strike another human being and with my severe asthma, I cannot run very far, nor last in a prolonged confrontation. (Be careful of what you ask for) Well over the next several years I was confronted so many times. People with bats, knives, once with a gun in Denver, I think it was some guy in a dress and high heels. He wasn't use to the high heels. (Please don't ask). Some times all I did was slip off my shows. Remember that 7-11 store on Central near the University (Albuquerque) Two guys three girls confronted me one winter. The ground was icy and both my arms full of groceries. I thought I could get better traction with socks. One of the girls screamed something about me being barefooted and they all just fell backwards to the ground, I walked around them and walked home. Another time three guys insisted I somehow disrespected them. I explained to them the idea of uncleanness and the only one disrespecting them were themselves, because of the masturbation they do in secret. One did ask where the church was located I went to. All this never prepared me for when My wife and I remarried. Eleven years of solitude does a strange thing to a young mans mind. So when the children would ask all kinds of questions one over the other; I could not follow any one of their words. So, I just pulled over the car left them with their mom and stepped out. I intended to stay at the shelter downtown Anchorage. A young native girl respectively ask me if she could give me a ride home (my home). She was well mannered and of proper spirit. I had already registered at the shelter, but felt I would only take up a bed someone else may need. So I accepted. And I was delivered back into the fray. (be careful of what you ask for God may give it to you.) So, there is your answer to facing my problems instead of running.
The -20 degree weather we get in Alaska didn't do my breathing any good at that time of my life and theopheline, predison, and simple inhalers would not serve me well as a truck driver in AK. We applied for food stamps and it appeared we would be denied. I gathered the children together and my wife and headed home. I had to stop for traffic and somebody plowed into the back of my wife's car. I examined the damaged and told the lady not to worry about it. She was thankful and we went on our way. It turned out she was one of the ladies from the welfare office. We did get the food stamps that well supplied my family with food from November thru February in Anchorage for those four months while we waited for some money to come in. It continue to last until after I obtained a job in N.Y. (Nearer where we grew up and had family) and There was still enough until later when I landed a well paying job with a local dairy. We attended the Erie Church of Christ where Dexter and Janet Wingfield taught. They were the teacher and preacher I knew in Albuquerque after The former ones moved. Small world. I moved the family closer to Erie, Pa. So the wife and children could still attend the church. I attended off and on. My children are all grown up now. The youngest I believe is 29. That was the age I was when I was in Albuquerque.
Thank you for your response David. I have no respect for men who abandon their children, your statements led me to believe that you had. As far a child abuse and reporting it to law enforcement I have to ask if you had a church member commit violence, or threaten to commit violence against another church member would you let that go? Now if it was violence against children you would deal with that in the church? Seems a double standard to me violence is violence, and those who commit violence against children need to be removed from the situation. As far as the government: child protective service is filled with good hearted people who sincerely love children. In Arizona there is more than 17,000 children in foster care and seldom is there problems. Kevin Harper who host's this blog, is a foster parent himself. Orphan Annie is a fictional character and such bears no resemblance to reality. The child abuse I saw was felony child abuse by the truck driver for Penzoil who beat his son so badly that he ran away; nothing was done to address this sin by the church W.P. being the teaching preacher at the time. What W.P. did do was to start sowing discord against this man by saying "all brethren who fall away and come back never do well especially S.S." and "S.S. and L.S. had better get their act together" and S.S. had better find a better way to deal with his children or he is going to be withdrawn from" This discord did nothing to curb this man's violent temper as it was spoken to other members of the church and not to him directly. But hey he knew Merie so it was okay? While there is a get out of withdrawal free card for people who are insiders there is no get out of hell free card. If we can agree that child abuse is bad then the next topic I will start discussing is Church spies.
Ooooooh! It's gettn hot in da kichen. I kin hardly wait for da church spies issue of this mad max mania.
How funny, Anonymous Sept. 21. I was thinking the same thing. Oh boy. church spies. Let it roll.
Awwww. Come on…'nuff or this stuff. Bring on da spies. Where is da bait?? I'm so anxious I kin hardly wait. Please, please bring it on. 🙂
Deuteronomy19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man..
Look at Numbers 5:11-31, What would happen if the woman developed a swelled belly and rotten hips? Look at Numbers5:31 " This woman shall bear her iniquity". Had anyone ever noticed, this procedure/ritual seems to be well drawn out. I like to think it to be for godly reasons.
1) The husband brings the wife along with the offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. He brings her and these offerings unto the priest.
2) Numbers5:16 the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:
3) verse 17; the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
4) verse 18 here the woman is basically drawn in closer to the process by uncovering her head and placing the offering in her hands.
5) you must read verses 19-22 yourselves. He charges her with an oath and speaks out the curse to her and explains the process. She acknowledges with an Amen, Amen.
6) While she sits thinking about the offering, the words spoken, The cup of water that makes bitter, and if there may have been anything in her pass; anything real or superficial; While the priest writes out these curses in a book, and then he blots them out with the bitter water:
6.5) before we proceed; What would happen if the women cries out her trespass? Perhaps it was when she was a bondmaid in her masters house, and someone forced her… See (Leviticus19:20).. or perhaps she was imprudent with a childhood friend that she truly loved. or she was forced out in the field where no one heard her screamed. but non the less she confesses to her trespass. Does she get stoned to death because she confessed? Personally, I like to think not. Does the process stop? I would think so. One does not need the process for something one confessed to. Can they stone her when technically the law says in Deuteronomy19:15. two or more witnesses are needed to establish a matter and the Lord loves mercy? Yes He is a God of justice. But as Christians what does it mean in The book of James2:12-13? "So speak ye and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. for he shall have judgement without mercy, that showed no mercy; and mercy rejoices against judgement". What if she is found innocent by drinking the bitter water? For the love and respect of her God and people she subjected herself to these procedures. For doing so see Numbers5:28 The woman shall conceive seed. What else does she gain? A jealous husband? Sure. But this past Sunday Trent Meeks brought up Hebrews 10:24 "and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works". But upon thinking upon it; I believe this is the very answer to erode the bitter effects of jealousy and envy. 1Thessalonians2:7-11. I remember when I was eighteen years old expecting our first child. It was a boy; 1980. But he had bright orange hair! I have brown hair, my wife has light brown hair. Oh yeah I forgot not only was I 18, but 18 and immature. This effected me for some time. People could tell. My Grandmother would reaffirm she was a good woman and the child was mine. Over time the gentle effects of this kind of positive reinforcement and the fun we had while he was growing eroded those iron bars set up so strongly in my heart. Iniquity erodes us, While love erode iniquity. So with the love and provocation of a congregation the jealousy of the mans heart is eventually eroded away. She's A good woman, she cooks great; When will you invite me to dinner?
Sorry I had to publish as Anonymous Sept21,2015. The site wouldn't allow me to publish under my name David Stankowski
You may come in the name of Anonymous, but we come in the name of God Almighty. PREPARE TO MEET YOUR GOD!
http://play.simpletruths.com/movie/the-100-0-principle/
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
[41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Amen and Amen Martin, yet let us all prepare to meek our God. Electronic communication leaves the personal factor out, body language, facial expression, Tone of the words and peoples predisposition to their own understanding of an exaggious of scripture. Numbers5:11-31 is an example. I seen how it could apply and lead one right back to Mathew5:1 thru the end. If understood properly it is really merciful and compassionate and opens up a lot of understanding. I think folks misunderstood my messages. otherwise they would not have suggest I was showing no compassion. Now, I get some strange looks walking into my classes. My draw with probably won't be lift for another xyzxyz years. Thanks guys! I did Go to the "off COC". at least three different ones. They either had elders living in adultery or parishioners. Because they hear what you teach, someone comes to you to point the people out. The preacher on his final day of preaching put it out there concerning Adultery. His final words pretty much were, to those of you who find yourself in such a situation. " I don't know what to tell you". Their leadership does know about withdraw, but they don't use it; except in situations they want. The way I seen it, I would rather go where they will tell me I am in sin. rather than a place where they encourage you to be in sin. A deacon encouraged me to address my passion. Its ok. God didn't intend for man to be alone. Foolishly I did considered it. I have enough irons in the fire without someone encouraging me to wink at my sins. But generally people were nice. When they hear you share things, someone would interject something to steer your words in a different direction. That makes for a lot of confusion. And changes the meaning of what one is trying to say. One of their own even stated "let's face it, the leadership is weak. I corrected him latter on that kind of talk and he got me back in a church buffet line; verbally out load. Amplified even. I was horrified plus my spirit burn within me. He just stood there, eyes closed with a twisted grin on his face. It reminded me of a child who wanted to be defiant, So, I said to myself, which church? So, I came back. Why can't people reason like the Apostles did when Christ was still with them? They reason with each other and brought it to Christ If they could not agreed. They did it also in the new testament church. Remember the issue over circumcision? So where is everyone's sense of dignity on this site. The spirit of reasoning. You seem to complain about the same thing you say the SCOC did to you. Sounds like apples don't fall to far from the tree. So thanks Guys; my Divorce will probably go on for years, along with my dis fellowship. I gave my word to my mother in-law on her death bed to look after my wife, who also attends the COC here. So yes ; prepare to meet your God!
Where do you attend?
Obviously you are not nor never have been a member of the Stanton Churches to ask that question.
to Concerned: and that matters?
BIG TIME
To Concerned: Please explain why that matters! Thank you.
Yes, please explain. Y'all seem so bold, but I guess it only goes so fer.
What is everyone's thoughts on the pope being here. Does the SCOC still think he's the image of the beast. Or has that fallen off the concerns from many of you who seem to be so against the preachers teaching the church of the dangers around the church? Or is he just a granpa throwing out his thoughts. All of America seems to be in love with him
Lynn, still waiting for an answer concerning your thoughts as to whether the Stanton Churches are the only true churches.
I believe Lynn gave his answer on September 22nd at 5:33 pm, after the question was asked. Scroll up, way up. The comments are sometimes difficult to follow, especially using a cell phone.
I scrolled up as you suggested and couldn't find Lynn nor could I find sept. 22, 5:33 pm.
It's definitely there, I just looked at it. Try again. It's directly after the question. Lynn's comments are noticeable because he has the orange B before his name, his comment you are looking for is the 3rd orange B from the bottom.
The Pope is a kindly enough man, but if he wants to teach Christ's message of helping the poor, recommend he start liquidating the churches billions. Particularly the massive temples costing billions of dollars. Then he starts sanctimoniously pontificating about global warming which is as bogus as it gets. We've been here for thousands of years, and a bunch of scientists, with about 150 years of data, begin extrapolating tremendous fairytales about how our world is in danger. It's a tremendous shakedown, because there is tons of money in preparing for global warming and the scam artists are taking full advantage.
Kind of sad to see dearly departed Speaker of the House John Boehner, blubbering like a baby behind the pope. The pope is a little far departed from the truth to be worth the veneration Boehner gives him. But when you follow a weak man, you have weak decisions, which is why Boehner was pitifully unable to oppose the godless, Marxist Obama's lying wicked agenda.
Oh, and lest we be deceived, Alexander Campbell openly debated the greatest atheists of his day, and was not busy hiding his words as our current church is secretively trying to hide theirs. Also, we should recognize John Newton and William Wilberforce, Christians before Campbell came along, were instrumental in ending the slave trade in Britain, and John Newton was a former slave ship captain. Wilberforce was a politician and worked God's will on a nation.
I can't see a single prophet or apostle in the Bible who hesitated to speak truth to power. As Christians, it is time to speak up. When the homosexual movement and abortion movement is vociferously dominating our nation, what are we to answer for meekly hiding in our secretive churches as our nation is dragged towards catastrophe. This business of being quiet and hiding your light under a bushel is nothing Jesus advocated.
Found it. My apologies to you and to Lynn.
Martin Luther: The movie ' Amazing Grace' is a wonderful movie/documentary on William Wilberforce. I highly recommend it.
Thank you Concerned,
I couldn't agree more with Martin Luther. I am most concerned with corruption is church leadership. "We will judge our brethren Merie said" and "I have a responsibility to keep the church clean" are two cliches that are used to give the power of acceptance or rejection to each individual teacher in every congregation. This absolute power over the salvation of others is used to empower the teacher. If you do not please you individual teacher you are rejected and then persecuted until you leave the church. Many have used these understandings to get rid of brethren they don't like for any number of reasons none of which are spiritual. The term "teacher" is a misnomer it should be "enforcer" or "absolute leader" or "master" or "father". You must stand on the bible and reject the false teachers. Can you, Christian, prove the divinity of the Bible on your own to yourself? Can you convict yourself of sin? Can you offer redemption for your sins from scripture for yourself? If you can't prove it for yourself how can you prove it to others?
Enforcer is a true statement.
One time I found a note book, belonging to a teacher, that had notes on various brethren. It looked like it was information that was brought to their attention from other brethren.
In the early to mid 80s I saw a lot of things that I didn't agree with in that it seemed like the church was a police state of brethren turning each other in to the teachers whenever they "think" what they saw was wrong. There was little peace and people walked on egg shells around each other. So, I left.
When I came back in 1999 I was hoping it would be different and to be sure I was very reserved with myself in FEAR that what other people would misconstrue would work against me again. One of the teachers started calling me, "Lone Wolf McQuade". It wasn't until brethren started imputing their views and understandings on my life that things got bad. I'm not talking about sin. I'm talking about measures of faith in certain areas. You can be so nit picky that when you take take what bothers you and implement them on others you can make it like it is sin.
Each of our consciences morals are different is some ways, but what happens if I implement mine on yours? What happens if I judge you by my conscience?
With the congregation doing this to each other and the teacher/preacher keeping notes it could look like you are loving in sin when all it is is people's picky conscience and the church being in a police state.
Yes, I know that we are to love those that are our enemies, but it makes it very hard to live in a congregation that has prejudicial glasses on and react to you accordingly. I have also seen brethren withhold or minimize their fellowship with other brethren because of now how they view them. TC brought this up about DC when she was talking about different preachers to her congregation that now when you would meet them you could be predisposed to them negatively in accordance to what you have heard.
I really don't think that Jesus intended the church to be like this. Of course there must needs to be action taken towards those who are living in sin, but to take it to the point where sin is defined by my conscience and/or what I could perceive as something you did wrong without all of the facts could take away a lot of joy of being a member of your congregation. How much until you begin to despise attending as you are now walking on egg shells and could offend anybody with a picky or overbearing conscience?
After while you could started to distrusting and despising your own brethren because you know that if they misconstrue something there is a good chance it be wrongfully relayed to a preacher or teacher and it being brought to you like it was a sin.
Just for an example, when I was going through a lot of chronic pain, due to my disability, I noticed that there were a lot of times that I would not answer my phone in that condition. I shared what with a brother, one time, when we were just casually talking about what I see in myself going through this. He took it to the preacher/teachers and it came back to me that I don't love my brethren because I am ignoring their phone calls. See how twisted something innocent can be made to be as or like unto sin? When this happens people will start shutting down.
Lynn you touched on a subject that is at the heart of what is wrong with the SCOC; church spies. It was explained to me at a Spring Valley fellowship by an ex navy man, J.S., in front of the evangelist from S.V. that from Genesis 4:9 Cain's retort to God "am I my brothers keeper?" and he went on to explain that yes we are to be our brothers keeper and to report to the teacher when we see things that are not right. This was taken to great extremes in Phoenix and Prescott valley churches. Your notebook was read (when you were not looking) and you were taught on the contents of your notebook without any conversation with you, about what was in your note book ( and I would have asked why are you reading my notebook without my permission?) Also three different times over the period of twelve years I have been outside my apartment at 11:00 p.m. and seen different men from the church driving through my apartment complex. What were they doing in my apartment complex that late at night? They were on patrol for the teacher checking to see if your vehicle was in the parking lot or not. One time I was working with D.S., the teacher at the time, on a Friday morning, and he suddenly had to go to the bathroom as we neared M.D. house on Greenway and we stopped and he knocked and when no one answered he let himself in, supposedly to use the restroom. That Sunday, M.D. marveled that it was if he had read my notebook. Do you leave your doors unlocked? Some teachers will let themselves in to read your notebook and teach you on what you have written. Who are the "spies" and who are the "secret police?" In Phoenix it was the men who were self employed. Several of these men from J.V., R.R., D.S.(the teacher) and late T.S.( the drill instructor) worked for free spying on others and as a result they could not pay their bills and had to ask others to buy their fellowship food, fuel for their vehicles, and have the church pay their rent. Any church member can be recruited by the teacher to spy: men, women, children, wives, husbands, anyone can be a spy against you. They spy is given special treatment by the teacher such as being exalted over you, and no reproof, rebuke or exhortation of any negative kind. However as I have seen time and time again, once the spy is no longer able to gain any useful information they are "castaway" by the totalitarian teacher as worthless. The spy suffers emotional rejection and usually falls away after they realized how they have been used to get at another Christian.(I wonder if Judas felt this way). The things reported on me were petty and even ridiculous. After several "Christian" roommates I decided to live alone and much of the false teaching stopped. Good fences do make good neighbors. The deeper things of God, such as love and tolerance of others were not taught but what was taught was pure gossip and conjecture. Jim Jones in his "people's temple" religion had several older women who were spies and would go through the trash can in the alley of new members and look for any information such as prescriptions; and Jim Jones would then "reveal" that "God" had told him of someone in his church that was taking pain killers, high blood pressure med, or the like and he was to heal them. The new member was convinced that "God" really did work through this man. In the SCOC new members were told the it was the "Holy Spirit" revealing things to the teacher and you really believed that "God" was among them. When you find out that it was a spy and not the Holy Spirit who is feeding information to the teacher you lose faith in this group as come to realize that the are a bunch of fakes, frauds, and charlatans.
One of the biggest reasons why my congregation treated me the way they did is because they strongly believed that they could come to your house any day or time they felt like without notice, even if is after midweek class.
I asked if they could show me a little courtesy and call to see if I felt okay to receive with all of the pain meds a chronic pain. It was taught in a sermon that I wasn't a man of God because I wouldn't allow what they wanted. They made this a sin.
I strongly believe I was ousted because I knew better than to give in.
Lynn, you touched on a subject that bothered me while I was with the Stanton group. Ones were being rebuked based on very little 'evidence", usually on one person's say so or the teacher's emotions. When the teacher was asked, privately, for an example of the "misdeed" the person was accused of, he had none. I was even rebuked for things his wife was doing, he told me himself! He just couldn't face her himself, so he used me. he said he was hoping she would "get the message!" (She didn't!) And he never did correct it or confront her.
The power of the teachers in congregations is absolute. They can change who you are to the others, so that you can no longer even share in class. Then, you are suppose to repent of things you didn't say or do, and are treated as an outcast until you do. It's almost like being withdrawn from, but you are expected to work! They will have you cleaning up after fellowships, teaching children's classes, doing mapping, etc. But you are never called on to share in class, not even the ladies classes.
The sad thing is that when I called out about it, I only received excuses for the teachers-"They have a lot on their plate", and " they are doing the best they can."
My point is that there needs to be checks and balances. Accusations against the teachers need to be taken seriously and checked out. Eventually they might be checked, but that is usually after years of damage done.
I don't have all of the answers, and don't pretend to. But I do know that the Stanton group needs to wake up and see what is going on in their congregations. Changes need to be made. There should be equity and justice in the faith and with God's people.
Whoever wrote the diatribe on 'spies' is most certainly watching to many movies', I was in the Stanton churches for a very long time and this is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. A spy system and I mean a very James Bond kind of system. Actually I have to say it was good reading. What a joke.
I don't think it was quite a literal you are taking it, but there are those, as I have seen, who have no problem running to the leaders with anything they believe to be wrong and the sad part of it is that there are to many things that are misconstrued and dealt with in a rebuking and/or judging manner that is harmful to whomever it is about.
I have first hand seen these things happen. There is a couple in the Tacoma congregation, who have been in the church since the late 70's who have taken things that were not wrong, but perceived them as wrong, taken to the leaders as a wrong, and leaders approach you, bring out in class, or rebuke you for something that wasn't even wrong but was relayed that way. I can see this happening once or twice, but it was such a common occurrence that you would have to avoid certain brethren just to keep this from happening.
Yes, you can forgive indiscretions from your brethren, but this is to much of a problem that actually disrupts the unity of the brethren. We should never be made to feel that we can't trust certain brethren with things that we or say that are not anywhere near being a sin, but is taken that way and run through that gauntlet.
Also, just because you weren't involved with something doesn't mean that it didn't exist. Empathy goes a long way in understanding what people have and are going through in these areas.
Kevin Harper; do you post blogs under the name of Anonymous?
Curious, I believe Martin Luther is babysitting the blog while Kevin Harper does bigger and better things.
Kevin are you posting as Anonymous on your own web site? That would seem strange.
Spies far fetched? Everyone worshipped Jim Jones as God until he held them down and had his "angels" squirt cyanide koolaid into their mouths( and yes it was murder and not a mass suicide). Some must get out their brush and bucket and whitewash their evils done in the name of Christ, and minimize anywrong doings. Pull you head out of the sand, start thinking with the reasoning part of your mind and not the emotional part of the mind. If there church is true and right how come Christ is seldom taught about; rarely is their a lesson out of any of the four gospels, most of the teaching is "Merie said" or Alexander Campbell said; if Christ is not the foundation of your church you will always be an "off church". How can you ignore the horrible abuses done to children, the gossiping and the discord, the breaking up of marriages, the teacher worship, the financial fraud, etc.? Is God working these evil deeds or man?
You are looking at all of this through the wrong end of the telescope. Comparing Jim Jones with the Stanton Churches is a total misrepresentation. You must be carrying a pretty big grudge for a very long time to believe this stuff.
To Concerned:
I agree that to compare the Stanton group with Jim Jones is a misrepresentation, the fact does remain that there are teachers in the group who abuse their position.
Maybe the teachers in your congregation are fair and strive to be teachers who follow in Paul's footsteps (you may even be one of those teachers), but it's not that way in some congregations. The group mouths the proper words by saying that members can "call out", the reality is far different. When ones do call out, their complaints are either dismissed, or just simply not dealt with. The abuse then continues. Most of the time the individual's reputation has been damaged by the teacher, so that no one will listen to the individual.
I agree with Debby when she said that there needs to be some sort of system in place, so that teachers are held accountable for their actions. If their actions are just and right, then they will withstand scrutiny. If not, then corrections should be made, reputations restored, teachers instructed. If the individual is wrong, then they need to do the same.
Not a grudge just finished studying about Jim Jones. I realized that juxtaposing SCOC and the people's temple seems unfair but, comparing one extreme religion to another is the point. The SCOC tends to be a sex crazed cult with teachings that dominates and controls the sex lives of it's members such as masterbation, wet dreams, defiled marriage bed and the like. When the primary focus of the group is the domination and control of others it becomes a destructive group rather than a constructive one. To compare one oppressive group to another is not unfair but it does show common abusive practices and you can see what it coming next in your group by what happened in the other group.
Amen, Concerned, Child abuse charges, Jim Jones, cult allegations, good grief, I had differences but they went nuclear when some people get hold of them. Stanton never advocated child abuse, is not a cult (if they are so is Christ, because he said anyone who doesn't follow him is going to hell). There are plenty of people with major grudges, and the worst are those who haven't learned that their own choices, no one elses, make or break them.
@AnonymousOctober 1, 2015 at 2:54 AM
You are correct in stating that members are discredited. Unless you have a lot of status in the church the leaders will believe each other before they believe you.
When I tried to contact others to let them know what was going on in Tacoma to DS in California the leaders here suppressed it real fast. When I emailed, in length, to the Evangelist in California he ignored me completely. After a few messages he told me wasn't going to get involved and let the leaders who are causing the problems deal with it. Then, by the time I contacted the other Evangelist he chose to believe them over me even when I presented irrefutable proof of what was going on. He even told me I was a busybody and compared me to DC.
By this time the whole congregation was treating me and my family like outcasts. It was like being withdrawn from without the actual withdrawl.
Well confused I think your are implying or maybe I am infering that I am filled with bitterness? Not really, I do have battle scars from "the one true church" as many do and I have gone to great length to show the thorns and thistles in the group that calls themselves the SCOC. I found that the battle between good and evil was not on the persoal work but in the church itself; between righteous brethren and wicked brethren. One man warned me about M.D. and how she liked to get inbetween husband and wife and meddle. M.D. liked to play the wife against the husband and in his marriage he did not talk to his wife even though they had four children and had been married over 15 years. The emotional distance between husband and wife was like a valley, much like they valley of Armeggedon. I realized from this that the last battle between good and evil will happen in the Churches of Christ between righteous brethren and wicked teachers and preachers. When the righteous cry to God for help God will send his son back to deliver the just out of the hands of the wicked once and for all. Phoenix is a very wicked church and you do not want to come here, it will destroy your marriage, your faith, and your hope. If you value these things stay away from Phoenix, you have been warned. Martin Luther all of your references are from television, Orphan annie, Little house on the parie, James bond, you need to turn off you TV and open up your bible and start preparing yourself for the coming battle.
Anonymous at 7:04, it is entirely appropriate to use modern examples to propound biblical doctrine. Jesus did not walk around quoting scripture all day. He had stories and allusions that people could relate to. I've never watched Little House on the Prairie, only read the books, I think it is a model family, and they attended church. I never mentioned James Bond once, and I personally not only don't have a television, but don't watch movies either. I don't even have internet at my home, don't need it. Since you cannot even get the facts straight from a blog, and you begin falsely accusing me, I have to become extremely skeptical of your accusations about the church of Phoenix.
I am certain you are aware of the scriptures regarding evil surmising, and where Jesus said to judge righteous judgement. We are told not to bear false witness, and also, in Phillippians to think only on things that are true. Not only are your thoughts not true, but you haven't even got enough self control to avoid putting them into words and demonstrating for any critical thinker that your opinion is not based on sound facts.
Perhaps the evil you perceive in others is simply an extension of your own evil, in your inability to distinguish truth, and to wrongly project falsehoods on your brother. I know very few humans who like to be falsely accused, and I can't imagine if you did this in Phoenix you earned yourself many friends.
I apologize Martin Luther, I lumped you in with the other trolls.
Does anyone know how the brethren in the Carolinas are doing?
I forgive you, Anonymous at 8:18.
Dear readers please be advised that Kevin Harper died suddenly this week of an unknown illness.
I am saddened deeply by this news. Kevin was a good man with good intentions this blog has given light and life to new truths and lies. It should continue to serve for Kevin's sake, if not the community that he was trying to save. His insights and knowledge were remarkable. Life is full of these turns of events. It will help us to remember what has been said here and to give honor to what this man achieved in his efforts for others. He will be missed by many. I enjoyed his challenge.
Kevin is my christian hero! The love of Jesus Christ showed through in everything he wrote! He has (and I say has in the present tense as to be absent here on earth he is alive and well in the presence of the Lord) exposed the Pharisees as Christ did, walked in truth, helped the fatherless and reached out to other Christians to bring them back into truth and the love of Christ. Though this is a time of sorrow for his family and friends I know God will continue to bless them. This blog is a blessing to all those affected by the oppression of the SCOC. I pray this blog continues to reach out to Christians to shed God's glorious light and truth of God's word to his people.
I don't know why anyone would post such nonsense. Kevin is alive and well. Anonymous 7:07, what in the world? Why would you spread such false information?
I loved Kevin for his bravery, for starting this blog, I will miss him.
The r:07eason anon on Oct 9 at 7 would post such nonsense is because he/she is trying to bait Kevin to post.
Also, note how "quiet" it has been since the congregations in North and South Carolina have been hit with the flooding. Seems we have a lot of folks in those congregations reading and posting on this blog, at least until their internet connections were severed. Hmmmmmmm……makes me wonder if "concerned isn't the evangelist in Greenville. Just sayin
That's a terrible thing to imply; that God is punishing the Carolina congregations for one man's actions. We should pray for God to help those in need, and now during their time of need. Please show some compassion. I use to think like you, that is: to look at others suffering arrogantly, Their suffering and my not suffering is a sign of my righteousness, this attitude I was taught in the SCOC. I know now how cold and distance this is, please pray for those in need and remember tomorrow it might be you or me in need.
To Anon at 6:21: I wasn't implying any such thing. I am simply saying that it's been very quiet since the flooding, meaning that ones aren't posting because their power is off. Concerned's post make me wonder if he is the evangelist from Greenville. And, he hasn't posted since the flooding, perhaps because he doesn't have electricity because of the flooding. Don't put words into my posts that aren't there.
While the children play with their ridiculous assertions shall we get back to intelligent communication?