SCOC references on other sites
- “My Inner Sanctum” (This ex-member converted to Islam)
- Who I am and why Islam (Possibly by the same person above)
- You cannot go to the other extreme to avoid liberalism (From a preacher’s interaction with a member)
- Your Church Too (DC’s old site)
We all have stories to tell. Outside of the Church of Christ culture, people call it your “testimony.” I like that. My testimony has been largely told here on these pages, and others have undertaken to tell their own stories of how this sect has affected their lives, and how they’ve found their way to a closer relationship with the loving and forgiving God of Scripture (or not).
Please use the comment section of this page to share how God is working in your life today, or if you can email me a more complete testimony of your experiences in (and out) of the sect. You can tell us how God has brought you out of legalistic thinking, or how you’ve come to have a deeper relationship with God, or any aspect of your story that you feel will be uplifting to those still struggling with the “doctrines and commandments of men” that have consumed the sect for the past 45 years.
I just ask that if your story involves other people, please refrain from using names where it would be hurtful, even if those people have hurt you. I believe the people who have hurt others through their abusive teachings and discipline methods know who they are, and my sincere hope is that they may one day change their hearts and work to make things right with those they’ve hurt. If ever there was a proper application of Matthew 5:23-24, it would be this: If you’ve hurt your brother by abusive teaching or improper church discipline, go and reconcile with your brother before another minute passes.
Not sure what to write? Try answering one of these questions:
- How did you first come to realize that the sect’s teachings were wrong?
- What caused you to realize that God is alive and well outside the sect?
- How have you sought fellowship with other believers after leaving the sect?
For some, you may not be ready to share your story. It may be too painful and too personal for a public forum like this. For others, sharing your story may be the perfect way to stand up and be counted. You can say to the world fearlessly “I belong to Jesus.”
Where I’ve chosen to republish an individual’s story here on the blog, you’ll find it linked in the top menu.
I think the biggest thing I’ve learned about God since leaving the sect is that He is not going to forsake us (as some would like you to believe) because sometimes we are struggling and not at our best. He did not come to condemn us but to save us (and that includes you). He’ll continue to work with us because He loves us and understands us; He is both merciful and patient. I think sometimes we forget that He exemplifies the “fruit of the spirit”; He is faithful and full of hope for us even when we have doubts. Unlike most people, He is compassionate to a fault. Because of His faithfulness I’m learning to trust Him. And He certainly doesn’t expect us to measure up to someone else’s idea of what is perfect, that’s for sure. It shows me that He truly does love me and He is a faithful and merciful judge. God knows our every thought and what motivates us; He only fully knows what our struggles are and it is only a faithful and merciful creator that can heal our wounds and help us to heal our hearts and ultimately rescue our souls.
2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
I like how you point out that God exemplifies the fruits of the Spirit…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). So many people in the sect don't even trust that God is good, let alone kind, gentle, joyful, and patient with us.
I know my best insights into God's nature have come from my experience as a father and seeing it backed up by scripture. There's a reason he calls himself our father, because he designed fatherhood. Every father lives out that aspect of being created in his nature, whether we know it or not. I love my kids and would die for them. I'm human and have exploded in anger a few times, but "my anger lasts for a moment, but my favor lasts a lifetime" (Psalm 30:5 ). Hmmm, God's like that too.
I think most of the misunderstandings in this sect's teachings have roots in one major misunderstanding…the nature of God. If this blog can open up a few people to seeing the goodness of God and deciding to trust him with their lives, I'm thrilled.
Joshua 24:20
If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Ex 33:5 For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
2 Samuel 22:27 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.
🙂 Just thought I'd shed a little light on your concept of who our God is. Just thought you began sounding a little like the Jehovah's Witness saying "would God burn his own children?"
You better get to studin' because though he is patient and compassionate he does consume those that obey not. And what WE, myself included, call "strugging" is often just a little rebellion. Saul could have said he was struggling when he would not kill the Amalikites. I'm sure Balaam would have said he was struggling but trying to please God. Nadab and Abihu aren't written to remind us of God's mercy and patience. The man that picked up sticks on the Sabbath or Uzza in 1 Chronicles 13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God. Nor Onan in Genesis 38:9. These are all "little" infractions that caused them to be STRUCK by our God. Who is a God of WAR. These are people that served the true God and not the heathens.
So get it straight. The Church teaches about God's love and mercy, his unmerited favor, but the teaching, exhortation and the rebuking, and reproofs are warnings.
Have a LOVE FILLED DAY : )
Wow Anon 9:44, that was out of left field! I think it is important to keep those scriptures in the context in which they were written first of all. Those were righteous consequences based on the offenses/circumstances. Secondly, Paul himself "struggled" with sin and it is presumptuous of you, evil surmising in fact to think you know what is in my heart so speak for yourself, not me. Go read Romans 7:18-20 KJV Your saying, "Have a LOVE FILLED DAY" is no more than a sarcastic, hate spewing mockery of what a christian is supposed to think. Our God is a God of vengeance, fire and many other things and he hates all unrighteousness. He is to be feared and held in awe. But he also is a God of love. Go read 1st John 4:8, I actually heard a sect christian state "Oh that scripture!" with much disdain. I thought you've got to be kidding me!
"Redeemed" Big Daddy
Seems like all I could see was the struggle
Haunted by ghosts that lived in my past
Bound up in shackles of all my failures
Wondering how long is this gonna last
Then You look at this prisoner and say to me "son
Stop fighting a fight it's already been won"
I am redeemed, You set me free
So I'll shake off these heavy chains
Wipe away every stain, now I'm not who I used to be
I am redeemed, I'm redeemed
All my life I have been called unworthy
Named by the voice of my shame and regret
But when I hear You whisper, "Child lift up your head"
I remember, oh God, You're not done with me yet
I am redeemed, You set me free
So I'll shake off these heavy chains
Wipe away every stain, now I'm not who I used to be
Because I don't have to be the old man inside of me
'Cause his day is long dead and gone
Because I've got a new name, a new life, I'm not the same
And a hope that will carry me home
I am redeemed, You set me free
So I'll shake off these heavy chains
Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be
I am redeemed, You set me free
So I'll shake off these heavy chains
Wipe away every stain, yeah, I'm not who I used to be
Oh, God, I'm not who I used to be
Jesus, I'm not who I used to be
'Cause I am redeemed
Thank God, redeemed
Here's a link to listed to "Redeemed."
"Kevin – So many people in the sect don't even trust that God is good, let alone kind, gentle, joyful, and patient with us."
I do. This is why I believe that God is these things in how my infirmity keeps me from coming when it does. I have always looked at my congregation not doing this. I believe God is empathetic and and wants us to be the same.
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
@Lynn, I can tell you have a heart that feels God's love and that's the lens you want your brothers and sisters to view God and you through. I think you're on the right track, brother.
I do think your commitment to staying there is holding you back from understand the love of God more deeply, because when you see it practiced daily, it will reinforce it and bring it out in you.
But God may have work for you to do there in your congregation, so I'm not necessarily encouraging you to leave. I think it's possible to meet with people you entirely disagree with and show Christ's love to them. The question is how long before you're kicked out if they don't really want to receive a message of love and grace.
I hear you. Tacoma has been under oppression for a long time. I was told that a preacher from Portland was sent there because of the lack of love the brethren had for each other and then another teach from the South was sent to us only to be sent back east, then another preacher and his family were sent to us all to help fix these problems that were never fixed. The more I brought it up the more I was castigated as though it didn't exist. Then if anybody from any other congregation would inquire about it it would get swept under the rug. I was told these problems existed by other preachers and members of this congregation. I knew I wasn't just seeing things. I think that people are to afraid to speak up,
The preachers and teachers are not infallible nor omnipotent. They will make mistakes and will be wrong, I have studies my bible for many years and have grown a lot, but we are told to follow them, even if I know they are wrong. They treat it as not receiving instruction or teaching. I believe they tell other people this instead of telling them why what is being taught is being accepted
Oppression is an easy way of controlling people. It keeps those in charge from actually working with people. This takes time and work, but oppression is to scare and beat people into compliance.
I know who Dianne was. I first met her in 1983 and was inspiration to me. I saw what she became even before it all came to light. She blew up at me during a Boise meeting after I asked her a scripture question. Very disturbing.
When people are failing to realize is that I will have to stand before God and give him account for how I treat my brethren. There is no justification to do this to any of the children of God whether they are right or wrong.
Kevin, I am currently looking for other congregations here in the area. There are other COC that don't look to be liberal or conservative. One group, who I got a hold of, meets in a community center. I pray to God constantly that he will point me in the right way.
Here is a letter that was sent out to a few of the brethren – http://standbeforegod.blogspot.com/
I found creative ways to deal with the oppression. I would do the personal work and when sent out alone I would invite everyone they didn't approve of. I told some that homosexauls were welcome( and one guy even showed up in a dress for nonmember class), I would also invite drunkards, kids (a twelve year old showed up for non member class) I don't think that they ever figured out that I was doing it on purpose.
Part 1: I have posted bits and pieces of my story on Facebook and here on this blog. I will attempt to tell my story because I hope that it will provide hope for those that are still lost.
I believe my parents were baptized in California (I think in Spring Valley) in 1971. I also had an aunt who was baptized and at some point was withdrawn from (many, many years later it was deemed unscriptural) when I was little or possibly before I was born. As a result my mom didn't talk to my aunt whom she loved very much until after her withdrawal was lifted. I was born in 1974 in California. In 1975 my parents moved to Iowa and I think about a year later helped start the Des Moines, IA congregation. When I was about 9-11 years old my dad was withdrawn from (and later it was deemed an unscriptural after I was an adult) and fell away.
When I was 12 years old my parents moved to SC. About a year later Christians were sent to help my mom start a congregation where we lived.
I got moved out at 18, got pregnant, moved back home, then got married to the father of my oldest child when I was 19. I believed much of what I was taught my entire childhood but I always had questions that I felt I could never ask. As a result of my experience growing up in the CoC: I learned to put up walls, to be like a chameleon by pretending to be what I thought people wanted me to be, to be prideful that I had the right answer and to pity (which was really pride) those poor religious people were so deceived and I viewed God as a judge (picture a court room where you are the defendant) who kept track of all my offenses and was going to read them off where everybody could hear them and then hand down my sentence (whether I was a Christian in the CoC or not). I thought that at some point I would get baptized in the CoC but I was reluctant to for many reasons and after witnessing the effects of the withdrawal in addition to the subsequent reversal, the CoC left a really bad taste in the mouth.
Part 2: Over the course of the next 18 years, I spent my time ignoring God or searching for answers. My search for answers took me to the internet and my Bible (church doctrine was so ingrained in me that rereading the scriptures I had been taught never answered my questions). My husband and I would have passionate discussions and I always tell him the CoC's talking points and when we were finished we were still convinced that the other person was wrong. At some point he told me about a website that he thought I should check out. I read it and was not convinced to change my beliefs. Sometime later, possibly a year or two later, I read it again. This time I left the website with a changed heart. At first I was skeptical and didn't believe what I read, then I thought okay I can see that point of view even if I don't believe it is correct, then other things I read made complete logical sense and answered the questions and doubts that I had. I had always felt a fog of confusion stemming from my unasked questions and the inconsistencies in CoC's rules. I feel like my experience (reading that website) was like the story of the Emmasus travelers.
As a result of my changed heart, I had an intense desire for God's word, for the first time in my entire life, and began reading whole books of the Bible starting with the New Testament then reading the Old Testament. I also told my husband I wanted to find a local church to start attending. We found a church that we love for many reasons and my husband and I were baptized. I was and still am shocked that we found a church that I could attend that didn't invoke all those negative thoughts and emotions, about the religious world, that I was taught as a child growing up in the CoC. Our preacher is an amazing expository preacher. The fruits of the Spirit are evident in the life of both the preacher and the members of this church.
There was a small part of me that wondered if I was deceived like I was brought to believe the religious world was. Then I started noticing that when I told God I didn't understand a scripture or told Him about something bothering me that scriptures would come in to my head and the combination of the scriptures together would paint a picture and would answer my question. This blog and the Facebook page also helped answer some of the other questions I had that I had asked God about. The fog of confusion, the sense that something is missing from my life, and the wondering of what my purpose is has been completely removed instead I am filled with love for God and gratitude for Jesus who was willing to die on the cross for me. I no longer view God as a judge but instead view Him as a loving Father who loved me when I was a sinner and knows and loves the real me. The change I have seen in my husband has been amazing and wonderful. I absolutely believe God is alive and well outside the Stanton CoC.
Wendy, I just want to say Praise God! He is so good to us 🙂 it is so wonderful to hear of people coming out of coc and finding salvation in Jesus Christ! I was raised in coc and I agree with both you and Anonymous 11:10 on having to re-learn scripture and God.
I was just thinking yesterday on how my parents loved me(no doubt!) and I learned to love from their example. But through Jesus Christ I have truly learned what love is and how to love. It is only through knowing Him as my savior that I have grown to love deeply and not just loving my family and friends but loving the unlovable, the ones who are evil in this world and yet I still mourn for their souls and love them. I was never taught how to love anyone outside of coc and family. Matt 5:46 for if you love them who love you, what reward have you?. . . I was telling that to my sister last night and she said, "they say we are all about God is love, yet they have missed the mark on what love is and how to love like Jesus.", so they have gone to the complete other end :(. Above all is Love! As I grow in my walk with Him and I begin to love above all else I find myself stepping outside of my "comfort zone" and living for Christ(doing what He calls me to do) doing things I would never have imagined doing a few years ago. I love that because I see myself growing in Him and I know when I am obedient to His voice He will bless me and change me into the person He has designed instead of who I had become.
We sang There is Power in the Blood at church today and I just love this verse, sin stains are lost in its life giving flow, there is wonderful pow'r in the blood!
Thank you Erin, it is awesome to see love working in your life. Understanding the power and reality of Christlike love can change people overnight.
For the last 5, 6? Years I have been told how much the church has changed. I've heard how they are more relaxed and have stopped teaching the extra rules that this church is known for. Unfortunately I have recently had a conversation that proved many of those changes to be false. They still cannot travel without worshiping in a Stanton coc during their trip. They still cannot enter the building of another religion even for a wedding. There is still no remorse (that I have witnessed anyways) for the extremes teachings and the horrible effects they have had. For those of you with loved ones still in who are claiming how different the Stanton coc is now.. Beware!
Rules, rules, ever-changing rules….The bottom line continues to be… listen to your teachers (and by listen they mean obey) and when the teachers change the rules they will let you know. If you like following an extra-biblical list of rules this is the place for you. If you like being under obedience to men and women who are not elders then this is the place for you. The sad thing is that the church is filled with wonderful people thinking they are pleasing God by obeying their teachers but they have done so to the unnecessary destruction of their marriage, their family, their children and possibly their relationship with God.
Yes anon @ 11:14, and I was just reading in 2 Peter chapter 2 about false teachers and I found comfort in those verses, particularly vs 9. God knows how to rescue the godly. He knows who the godly are. He is able to rescue them! How many of these "Christians" in this specific church are really saved? We don't know the condition of their hearts and whether there is sincerity in their repentance or if they are merely doing these things because their teachers tell them to. One thing we do know, and what I'm thankful for, is that God knows them. He knows all of us. He is able to rescue the godly out of their trials. He is the God who sees us and he sees each and every one of us.
It took me a long time to be able to recognize them as "false teachers" because I struggled with the notion that they might not know what they are doing and therefore may not be responsible. Now I know that teachers are all held to a higher standard and they above all had better be able to give an reason for the HOPE that they have.
1 Peter 3:15.
Well, I haven't once heard a sermon (or a comment outside of church, or joyous praise… and on and on…) of HOPE come out of the mouth of anyone in that church. So I ask you, what hope is there if not in Jesus Christ, Stanton? What is the hope that you have? From here, it doesn't look like you have HOPE in Jesus' ability to save, heal, teach, and love. Does He save or do you do it by your words and the water baptism in your churches? Does he heal? or do you think he doesn't do those types of miracles anymore? Does he divinely teach through His word? or do you gather for yourselves what you need to from the Scriptures – independent of Him? and does He love? or is that love stuff just a show? I know Kevin has done a fantastic job of covering these topics but that's part of my testimony too.
There is no hope in the Stanton Church of Christ. I knew that a long time ago. Don't get me wrong, I know we need to learn what sin is and be taught against sin. I do think though that there is a balance and God's character needs to be taught within that balance. He forgives so along with the teaching of what not to do, we need to be taught that we are forgiven when we repent, etc, and not just to zero in on the negative and leave the person with no hope in the end of the sermon. Our hope is not in following rules. It is in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
We love because he first loved us. Period. If we don't have that love for others then maybe we haven't received it for ourselves. and if we never teach about HOPE, only condemnation for all of those sinners out there (not in here of course), then what in the world kind of hope is there?
Anon 5:08, AMEN. Thank you for posting. So many people describe Stanton "worship" service as more like a funeral than joyous praise to the God who redeemed us and set us free. I still fall short of the mark every day, so I have a lot to be thankful and joyful for.
When we're so focused on our own past sin, we become self-centered and are not thinking about how we can serve other people. Only when we acknowledge that we're forgiven can we truly love.
Luke 7:41-47 "Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." "You have judged correctly," Jesus said. 44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little."
Anon 5:08, Amen! Awesome post!
Question: "Masturbation – is it a sin according to the Bible?"
Answer: The Bible never explicitly mentions masturbation or states whether or not masturbation is a sin. The Scripture most frequently pointed to in regards to masturbation is the story of Onan in Genesis 38:9-10. Some interpret this passage as saying that “spilling your seed” on the ground is a sin. However, that is not precisely what the passage is saying. God condemned Onan not for “spilling his seed” but because Onan refused to fulfill his duty to provide an heir for his brother. The passage is not about masturbation, but rather about fulfilling a family duty. A second passage sometimes used as evidence for masturbation’s being a sin is Matthew 5:27-30. Jesus speaks against having lustful thoughts and then says, “If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.” While there are parallels between this passage and masturbation, it is unlikely that masturbation was what Jesus was alluding to.
While the Bible nowhere explicitly states that masturbation is a sin, there is no question as to whether the actions that lead to masturbation are sinful. Masturbation is nearly always the result of lustful thoughts, sexual stimulation, and/or pornographic images. It is these problems that need to be dealt with. If the sins of lust, immoral thoughts, and pornography are forsaken and overcome, masturbation will become a non-issue. Many people struggle with guilty feelings concerning masturbation, when in reality, the things that led to the act are far more worthy of repentance.
There are some biblical principles that can be applied to the issue of masturbation. Ephesians 5:3 declares, “Among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity.” It is hard to see how masturbating can pass that particular test. The Bible teaches us, “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). If you cannot give God glory for something, you should not do it. If a person is not fully convinced that an activity is pleasing to God, then it is a sin: “Everything that does not come from faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). Further, we need to remember that our bodies have been redeemed and belong to God. “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do with our bodies. In light of these principles, the conclusion that masturbation is a sin is biblical. Clearly, masturbation is not glorifying to God; it does not avoid the appearance of immorality, nor does it pass the test of God’s having ownership over our bodies.
wow, that was out of left field. Interesting. I agree with most of what you are saying but I think it could also not be a sin — only in the marriage bed.
Yes, our bodies are not our own but for another reason than what you said. They are not our own because they are also our spouse's. We can't deny sex to our spouses.
I think the main thing is whether or not that goes against our conscience or not. If not and our spouse would like some help learning how to please us then what are we supposed to do? Just tell them no? You're on your own! Figure it out! (what?) The motive behind the act is just as important if not more – see the sermon on the mount. Jesus looks at the condition of the heart as prominent.
But then we go back to the argument that sex is for procreation only vs sex is a gift from God for unification of the marriage, honoring God with my body in my marriage.
I don't think you can tell people what is sin if the bible doesn't expressly say it is. I think that's the whole point of this blog. Even if we are talking about masterbation.
What is clear, however, is that your conclusion is your own and my conclusion is my own and we are under God's authority, not one another's.
Well said, Anon 1:14. I believe you've got the answer.
And I agree with 5:18PM. What is perhaps more critical is that Anon 1:14 leaves out "…I don't think you can tell people what is sin if the bible doesn't expressly say it is. I think that's the whole point of this blog. Even if we are talking about masturbation. What is clear, however, is that your conclusion is your own and my conclusion is my own and we are under God's authority, not one another's." What 5:18 said demonstrates the will of God. Where the bible is silent we must not create our own rules and bind them on others. Because doing so is the height of irreverence toward God and He doesn't take it lightly. To think that you have "improved" on what God has said through scripture is to mock God. Because this sect refuses to remain silent when they are bound by scripture to do so and by wresting the scriptures (adding & taking away from it and taking scripture out of context) the word of God becomes corrupt and turns into the commandments of men or fleshly wisdom. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are more than able to provide all we need abundantly in every area of our lives. This requires trust in the truth which is He is greater than all of us in wisdom, knowledge, mercy, etc. I love this scripture: Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Corinthians 11:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:12 (KJV) 2 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
Deductive, Inductive reasoning coupled with approved example proves Anon 1:14 is correct. I am not one that likes to list scriptures because most of you know all of them but I will this time; Gal. 5:19-uncleanness is listed among the sexual transgressions. (What is uncleanness anyone?) Eph. 5:3-all uncleanness (all inclusive, what could that mean?) and one more perhaps; Eph. 4:19- working ALL UNCLEANNESS with greediness. (again why would we exclude masturbation from the word ALL). If you want a translation battle, well then bring it on..
Can someone please explain what that means? Deductive, Inductive reasoning, and approved example? and where do those ideas/themes for interpreting Scripture originate?
Google it.
Deductive and inductive reasoning are simply ways that we all process information to arrive at conclusions. What most in our movement don't realize is that they are not bullet proof. Each form of reasoning has its own weaknesses for determining absolute truth. For instance, if I have 14 surveillance video clips of Bob entering a convenience story right before a robbery took place, I may have solid reasons for thinking he did the robbery, or that I have "necessary inference" that implies that he did it. But there may be alternate explanations…perhaps it was someone that looked exactly like Bob. Or maybe it was Bob, but it was a coincidence that the robbery took place right then. Maybe the actual perpetrator hid out in the building for 4 hours before pulling off the heist.
So logic is important in arriving at truth, but claiming 100% certainty in many cases is a sign of ignorance, pride, or both.
As for "approved example," that is a preconceived rule of interpretation that sounds very logical…if the first century church did it, it's an "approved example" and we can too, right? Not so much, because like with deductive reasoning, there can be alternate explanations we have to take into account. Is the taking up of a collection on Sunday something that is commanded as an "approved example," or is that what Paul commanded to the churches of Galatia in order to have enough funds to help those affected by the famine in Judea?
"Command, example and necessary inference" are the rules of interpretation our movement has adopted in deciphering all the "commands" of God, Jesus, and the apostles. However, this is like asking our kids to subject our every word to a microscope to find out what we want from them. That would do nothing but make good lawyers out of them…they'd easily find all the loopholes, just like the Pharisees did with the Law of Moses.
Kevin, you have given me pause to contemplate some things… Your explanations are so very much appreciated!
Kevin, thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I really appreciate it!
My spirit can not know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven. I have to be taught from another source that is not of this earth. There is no tool on earth that can be an exact science opening the mysteries of the word of God, especially logic. (definition of logic; A science of formal principles of reasoning.) Because Christianity is not reasonable because it deals with the spiritual realm. 1 Cor. ch.2.
We must have the Holy Spirit to know truth.vs.10-But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit; For the Spirit searcheth all things yea the deep things of God.
Direct Command, example, necessary inference (deductive, inductive reasoning) approved example are all earthy tools to put scripture in perspective to our human minds. But learning truth comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the words of God.
Christianity is not reasonable? Where do you get that?
Romans 12:1 – I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Logic is not a "tool," it is from God. In fact, in one sense, God is logic. Jesus is said to the the "Word," right? The Greek word for "Word" is "Logos," where we get our English word "Logic."
Formal rules of logic are simply the science of how all humans understand truth. To shun logic is to shun knowledge itself.
As for your contention that truth comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, obviously it does not. Has the church always been right in its doctrines over the years? If so, why has it changed its doctrines on things like womens' pants and so many other issues?
See:
Wildly out of context verses
2 Opinions Chapter 3
Thank you. I've learned a lot about God being a parent. I'd rather my kids obey me from the heart out of love for me and be wrong sometimes then to hyperfocus on lawyer-like accuracy about my words and not have a good relationship with me or their siblings.
I stumbled across this letter written to the church by Dianne Collier. For many of us raised in the church the 'split' that happened between her and the church was part of all of our stories.
http://yourchurchtoo.blogspot.com/2005/02/doctrine-we-have-learned.html?m=1#comment-form
I found this today regarding this sect on the web. So true!
http://www.wordsoftruth.net/wotvol14/wotbulletin10062013.html
Hello Kevin what do u mean joyous praise? I was not raised in Staton coc but was taught to be sober by my parents when worshiping god which doesn't mean I'm not thankful. And making a remark that their worship service is like a funeral was not necessary. I love luke 7 41, thank you
I came to the church at twenty-one years of age and fell away at age twenty-nine; I am now forty-three years old. During those seven years, I experienced a torment that I have never experienced before nor thereafter.
I remember the feeling of relief when it was discovered that my baptism into the church was unscriptural because it was done for the wrong reason; I FELT FREE! I continued to attend classes with growing pressure to become baptized. I reluctantly decided to become a Christian and rejoin the church. I remember looking at the teacher and preacher, who were both sitting down at the time for oppression, and thinking, “I will be trapped again just like they are. I bet they’re happy that I am joining in their misery.”
I had a hard decision to make; did I want to spend an eternity in hell or join a body that would only be a temporary hell? I was baptized.
After my seventh year, I fell away. Of course once the news spread, my phone began ringing off the hook. A babe called me, but I did not talk to her for fear of murmuring or shaking her own faith. A spiritually strong teacher from another congregation, who was also my closest friend in Christ, called me to discuss why I had left. I knew I had a responsibility to explain why I had made my decision; therefore, I spoke freely to the teacher about why I left the church. I did not go back to any classes and shortly after, I received a phone call from a preacher in my congregation. He said the Church would be conducting a meeting discussing withdrawing from me on the grounds of murmuring; apparently talking to the teacher who had called me was sinful. If there was the slightest chance of ever returning to the church, it was utterly destroyed in that moment. I inquired how the church could withdraw from a fallen-away Christian if the sin was committed after she had left the fold. To point out the ludicrous of this withdraw, I asked if they were going to withdraw from every Christian who has sinned after falling away. I ended the conversation with, “So be it.”
Curiously, I remembered how the church would always tell tales of fallen-away Christians and how their lives were wretched and miserable because they had left the church. Determined to create my own destiny, I decided to enroll in college. It was here that I learned I had potential and talent; I graduated from college with a 3.98 GPA, Magna Cum Laude and earned my Bachelor of Arts in Elementary Education.
I have been teaching for a decade and have found that teaching is my calling! My students love me and I love them; each year I add new members to my family, so to speak. I have worked with children who have been abused, shunned, and looked upon as academic failures; I know how they feel. I am determined to make them feel worthy and special and help them become the best that they can be! I know I am successful when I see them come to me with loving smiles, willing attitudes, and the occasional, “I love you” notes and drawings; I hang their letters of love all around my classroom each year!
From time to time I think about the church, after all, shall I ever forget? I remember my one -year-old son used to hold a strand of my hair during services; it kept him quiet while my brethren and I listened to sermons. A teacher came to me and said, “Your son needs to stop holding your hair during classes; it’s distracting.” I pathetically caved under her instruction. At each class thereafter, I would ignore my broken heart as I reprimanded my son for trying to touch my hair. So much hurt and pain is what I remember from my life in this church!
There is a saying and it goes, “When a relationship is over, you always remember the good things that happened but forget all the bad things.” Sadly, that is not the case for me.
Alas, perhaps one day I will awake in Hell, but know this; like all of us, every member of this church will stand before Christ and answer for what he or she has done.
Pensacola I probably knew you! Glad you shared your experience and thoughts! They are so similar to what I and others experienced. I, too, thought about the things said of those who left the group. I realize what we were told were just stories, designed to make us stay. I also have to wonder about the reasons we were told they left-it was always attributed to sins they supposedly were unwilling to give up. Now I know better! Welcome to the blog!
Welcome to the blog, I'm glad you found your way away from the Stanton sect's unbiblical teachings. I'm also glad you found your calling in teaching and showing love to kids in the schools, many of whom don't get it at home. That's awesome. My wife and I do foster care for that reason.
Have you visited any other churches since you left the Stanton sect?
I just started listening to a pastor out in Cali, Jack Hibbs; he is wonderful because he biblically teaches in such a way that it makes me want to change, but I feel amazing about doing it! I am not made to feel like a disgusting, worthless child of God. Sure, I am not worthy, but God WANTS me to succeed; He wants me to win the race!
It's interesting; understandably, I have wanted nothing to do with God after leaving the Stanton sect. I asked God to show me the truth about the church in Pensacola and allow my heart to be open and honest to it; a few days later, I stumbled up this site. I've never been able to speak with anyone about how the church treated me because no one really knows what I went through. For the first time, I am seeing that you all went through the same torment and humiliations that I received, but I had no idea because we never talked about it. I thank God for releasing me from this oppression!
I'm excited that your journey back to God is starting! He is soooo much better than who Stanton makes him out to be. 🙂 And that's really the entire goal I'm trying to communicate in this blog, so I'm glad you found it. Thanks for sharing your story!