The idea that truth doesn’t need to be afraid of a lie was a staple teaching growing up in this group. However, it was only applied in challenging other people from other churches, denominations, or religions. It was never applied to yourself. After all, it was just assumed that you had the truth and others did not.
The church’s fear of having its doctrines and practices exposed for all the world to see manifests itself in several ways. When faced with a desire for open dialogue, they retreat to silence, secrecy, and scare tactics rather than face facts head on. There is clearly an attempt to control the flow of information that is accessible to the flock and their family members.
- Facebook accounts are not allowed.
- Congregations and individuals cannot create websites advertising church functions, meeting times, etc.
- Church discipline (against members and sometimes ex-members, affecting dramatically their family dynamics) is used as a threat to stop information from being posted online. As a result, if you search the Internet for information about this church, which has been around for over 40 years, there is a black hole of information (until now). Message control through intimidation has been amazingly effective.
- Why aren’t old Merie Weiss tapes distributed freely to whoever wants to listen to them? Better yet, why aren’t they boldly published online in MP3 format?
- Why aren’t May Meeting deliberations posted on YouTube for all to see? They are supposedly patterned after the “church council” in Acts 15, and that’s recorded for posterity.
- Why do church leaders feel the need to silence, rather than respond (sincerely) to public criticism? They are certainly free to create a blog and respond to the information posted here, or contact me to provide another side of the story and I’ll publish it here.
- If it’s so important that criticism of church doctrine needs to be handled privately, isn’t it hypocritical that church members and their children are routinely rebuked and humiliated out in the open without that same courtesy?
Thanks again for all of this Kevin. We can only hope that they won't turn a blind eye.
How do you feel about the Amish?
I don't understand the relevance of your question. I believe the Amish also have heaped up traditions of men on top of the Bible.
Kevin,
Your point about Acts 15 is off. After the "deliberations" the letters were sent to all the brethren! As it still is today. What are you saying? That they need to be posted online and that will be akin to writing the Bible?
Further, I agree with the decision to not to respond. Christ said shake the dust off your feet. I have no doubt that there was a period where you were reasoned with. Am I right?
2 tim 3
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
Clearly, we are instructed to go forward, endure the persecution and work on the things that we lack. Because we do lack. All of us.
1) Are you saying rebuking is the persecution Paul's writing to Timothy about? I believe persecution should not be coming from other believers, but from unbelievers, and I believe we here in America know next to nothing about real persecution.
2) Are you coming right out and accusing me of being a "man of corrupt mind?" That's pretty presumptuous of someone who doesn't know me. You're assuming that I'm "resisting the truth" just because I'm resisting what you've been taught is the truth. That is "comparing ourselves by ourselves" in my book.
3) You said you have no doubt there was a period where I was reasoned with. I was, I guess you could say, but ironically, the opinions I expressed about a couple of the doctrines I disagreed with at the time have now been adopted by the church in its "growing" understandings (i.e., changed doctrines).
I did not leave with any negativity in the slightest. I just walked away, because I knew that my love for the truth and my respect for my own conscience would eventually get me into trouble with leaders.
It was the best decision of my life. My wife and I are passionate followers of Jesus Christ, and I have raised my kids (age 14 to 20 not including the 5 year old) to love God and love people with a passion.
I wouldn't dare compare this to being beaten and stoned. But it is funny how your shining of light is airing grievances and disagreements and no doubt make the Church look bad to your followers. Webster defines it as: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches, to cause distress
This is what you are doing. You are dragging members through the mud. Although, you deny it. So whatever "real persecution" is in your book, this is a form of it. If your true intention was to save your dear ones, it would seem more logical to call them up and talk to them or talk face to face. Why speak to them over the World Wide Web?
It's funny how you were allowed to simply walk away, but you seem to think others aren't given that liberty. No one is forced to stay. I remember one brother proclaiming "let 'em go!" It's your choice. You see Kevin, no one is pressuring you to come back and leave the place you attend. Yet, you find it necessary to prod them to leave their place. That's why I call this persecution. There is no such site that calls you by name as you have some brethren. There is no such site that airs your faults. That's why I say you are the persecutor. Though slight and sly it may be- this site is a place that persecutes the Church. Because your speech is fair, doesn't cover up the intentions. Judas kissed Christ to betray him, but that deep, deep ulterior motive was not as it appeared outwardly.
Persecution is nothing new for the Church. It won't be shaken as you hope. It can't be. God has safeguarded it, and glory be to him for it. You see, this is why I love the Church. Though darts may hurl from far and wide, the Church goes on. It must go on. Truth never stops hurling through time. Closer and closer to that last day.
Why is that you cannot, will not, see the difference between understandings and doctrines? Let's take one of the ugliest wrong understands that came out (because you've already aired this) the tying of hands. It was never taught that if someone didn't comply to that, they would go to hell. You see understandings can change. The things that take us to hell will never change. Marie, again, did not break away because of understanding but doctrine. Doctrinal understandings that to this day cannot be disproven with scripture.
I have NOT accused you of a corrupt mind. I WOULD NOT do that. Those people that Peter speaks of have no hope. I hope that you have hope. I am simply saying that your actions are dangerously close to what he describes. And I myself, would never even play with that line, lest I cross over it. If I disagree with something I've heard, I do not turn my heart against it, for fear that I may be wrong and the Church or that teacher may be right. Have you thought of that, Kevin? What if YOU are wrong? I always leave just a little possibility that I may be wrong. And because this is the place that is solid as a rock on foundational doctrine, I trust it. It is not in man to direct his own steps. You rely so much on the conscience. That's good, but you don't rely enough on the fact that conscience must be educated. And at times educated by others.
No I am not saying rebuking is the persecution Paul is warning about. NOT saying that at all. I am using that scripture to show the godly will suffer it. And so it is no marvel that this is going on.
Thank you for your clarifications on rebuke and persecution.
1) I have not sought out any followers on this blog. I honestly don't want that and would be much more comfortable remaining anonymous. I have, on the other hand, encouraged people to think for themselves and examine the scriptures to arrive at their own conclusions.
2) I fail to see how asking an organization (that claims to be the sole place where salvation can be found) to back up its teaching by Scripture is persecution. If you asked tough questions of JW's, are you persecuting them or asking them to find their beliefs in the Bible? That's all I've done, and with little exception, the silence has been deafening.
3) For obvious reasons, I can't call everyone up and talk to them face to face, because that requires that I know who they are. I don't know 99% of the people who have read this blog. I simply wanted to convey a message to the people who have been hurt by the fallible doctrines of the church that God is alive and well and interested in a relationship with them. It is a mission of love, not a vendetta. Maybe someday the scales will fall off your eyes and you will see that.
4) I am very cognizant of my fallibility and have not once insisted I'm 100% right and Stanton is 100% wrong. I have never asked to be followed, or threatened withdrawal or public rebuke if you don't.
You ask why I don't just walk away quietly and leave you alone? The truth is, I did just that about 20 years ago.
Since then, I raised my family out of the reach of the unbiblical doctrines of the church, and have been so blessed beyond words. My conscience won't let me sit here with the peace in Christ and the love for God and my brothers that I have come to know and not shout it from the rooftops.
At times that's meant that I have had to offer my opinions on why I think Stanton is misguided, but I think if you look honestly and read this blog from the beginning, you'll see my heart and realize that I'm much more interested in truth and building people up than tearing anything down.