A truth from Scripture that I recall being taught from my earliest memories is how the conscience can so easily be seared with a hot iron and become numb to repeated violations. Sadly, this is happening to members of the group who repeatedly witness wrong things and stay silent out of fear:
- People are rebuked publicly without mercy, and without even having been approached privately first.
- Non-member teens are called out publicly for their misdeeds, humiliating them and their parents, and usurping parental authority.
- Entire Bible class sessions can be taken up with unmerciful public rebuking, with little or no actual study of the Bible.
- Gossip and evil surmising.
- Retribution, “witch hunts,” and intimidation used against those who try to speak out.
- Truth doesn’t need to be afraid of a lie, yet valid questions are silenced rather than answered.
The first time you witness something like this, your conscience is pricked, but fear keeps you from speaking out. The next time, it’s easier to accept it. After many years in the group, the conscience can become so numb to abusive behavior that it goes unnoticed altogether.
There are plenty of people who have witnessed or heard things done that without question are totally wrong, and they know it in their hearts because their conscience is pricked. However, by choosing to stay silent out of fear, or by making excuses for what is done by pushing away what their conscience is telling them, they’ve had their consciences seared with a hot iron. It’s time to stop ignoring what you know is not right.
James 4:17 (KJV) “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
h/t to an anonymous contributor for most of the above
Hi Kevin,
The thing I want to point out here (which you are already aware of) is that they actually believe that their "widsom" and "judgements" come from God himself. To be a Merie Weiss Christian, one must have a Merie Weiss teacher to guide and direct them in the ways of the "one true church". How else can someone properly "teach" if not by intimidation, fear, public rebuking, and the like. Answer: because they are teaching their opinions and bits of God's holy word strung together to meet the conclusions they are making independent of what God's word says when read in context with the rest of the passage, not just that single verse or two.
Who needs the Holy Spirit to guide and convict when you have a Merie Weiss church of Christ teacher to do it for you. Then all you have to do is follow the rules and hide out. People, Does this sound like the church Christ died for? When he was with the woman at the well did he publicly rebuke her? or address her with compassion and forgiveness? … and there are lots and LOTS of examples in the bible of the real church that Jesus started.
So, to all of you who would call yourselves Merie Weiss Christians, or rather Christians (because no one else qualifies in your opinion) why did Jesus have to die if I need Him and I need you as well? Why was the veil torn? What did that mean if I need Jesus and I need you to receive salvation?
There is only one answer: we need Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved. Amen.
Daer Anonymous, amen, well said. The New Testament scriptures don't tell us to search out and follow a church, they tell us to search out and follow Jesus. This sect teaches Churchianity, not Christianity.
Also, the gospel is said to be a seed. That seed can be planted by anyone, anywhere, and it can germinate and took root in anyone's heart without the need of any "anointed" group of people to make it grow.
One of the most damning points against the teachings of this church is that they teach that you need the Bible + them to be saved. Someone in Africa, much less Fresno, can't just pick up the Bible and figure out that they need Jesus. They have to be "led" to one of the churches in the sect first. This is totally arrogant and unbiblical.
What, is the Word of God not powerful enough to save, we have to have their special blessing first?
This sect also does not believe that you can be baptized for the remission of sins by any group except theirs (started by Merie Weiss) and be saved. Jesus said he who believeth and is baptized will be saved, not he who believeth and gets baptized by the church started by Merie Weiss will be saved; my point is they are adding to God's word once again. Their reason is that they think no one else believes it except them (which is false).If you make a stand on it, they'll withdraw from you.
Well said. It is unbelievable that they are so arrogant to think that they are the only people in the universe who have figured out Christianity.
You guys are gripping on an on with old knowledge. I have NEVER witnessed someone getting rebuked without being spoken with first.
And the Church rebukes with mercy and love. This is totally scriptural "open rebuke is better than secret love" "rebuke before all that all may fear" and Paul said he withstood Peter to the face before all.
I thought of these three examples in like 2 mins. Are you studying your Bible Mr. Harper?
What church do you attend? If you have NEVER witnessed someone being rebuked without being spoken with first you might not be on the correct blog. I would love to see the day when Christians don't sit through 'surprise rebukes'. Maybe you're in a 'progressive' congregation that is teaching differently than the majority; you're fortunate if that is true.
Well, let's look at these examples, shall we?
1) "open rebuke is better than secret love"
This is a value comparison from Proverbs 27:5. It does NOT say that open rebuke always appropriate, it says that compared to secret love (which is love unexpressed), open rebuke is better.
2) "rebuke before all that all may fear"
This comes from 1 Timothy 5:20. If you start in verse 19, you'll see he's talking about being careful to NOT receive an accusation against an elder without first having 2 or 3 witnesses, AND THEN, if he's sinned, rebuke before all. In this case, rebuking publicly is important because an elder is in a leadership position and his sins can easily lead the flock astray.
I suppose I can't expect you to know this since the Stanton churches have never had elders in 45+ years of existence.
3) Paul said he withstood Peter to the face before all.
See #2. Peter was an elder (1 Peter 5:1) so we can assume that Paul had at least 2 witnesses. Not only that, it sounds like he witnessed Peter's behavior himself in Galatians 2:11-14. Since Peter was a public figure, he needed to address the matter publicly so set the record straight and keep others from falling into the same wrong behavior. I have no doubt that he reaffirmed his love toward Peter once the conflict was over.
For the record, I do believe there are times when open rebuke is appropriate–i.e., necessary to bring about the required change of heart–just not nearly to the degree that Stanton does, which I would say has pretty clearly crossed into unmerciful public humiliation.
I was rebuked twice publicly without being spoken with first. Wrong info was said both times as well.
No, no, no. 1 Timothy 5:20 is NOT just speaking of the elder that is in sin. You're telling me to start in verse 19, you should start in verse 1. It is evident that Paul is giving a list of things for Timothy to consider and he throws rebuke them that sin in there.
This is consistant with 2 Timothy 4:2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Your first point makes so little sense, I can't even combat it. The scripture clearly says that open rebuke is better. So open rebuke is appropriate. Nonetheless, you have an entire page devoted to tearing down this practice.
And if you need proof that not only elders are to be rebuke try
Titus 1: 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith
Titus 2: 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
It appears to me that Kevin has been rebuked and instead of taking it and changing to the better, he allowed his heart to turn into an adamant stone. But those of us who humbled ourselves, have moved on, grown, and are closer to God for it. I have been rebuked for things that I haven't done. So what? People make mistakes. I will, and probably have falsely accused someone of something too. Pride is a crown Kevin. Everyone can see why you need the rebuke, but because it's on top of your head, you can't see it.
Wow, talk about speaking things about me that you know nothing about. Isn't that what slander is?
1) I have never been rebuked once by Stanton (at least not in my hearing), except by the attacks coming from you and one or two other commenters. I have always maintained an amicable and truth-seeking relationship with my friends and family in the sect. While this blog has been interpreted by you to be an attack, it is no such thing.
2) I have absolutely no animosity against Stanton or its leaders, past or present. God is my witness, he can search my heart and find nothing of the sort inside me. I'd love to have coffee with any of you and rationally and calmly talk Scripture and show my love to you face to face. Anyone in the Boise area, look me up.
3) I acknowledged that there are times open rebuke is appropriate and necessary, did you not see that? And I did not say that it can only be done against an elder, I was simply pointing out the context of those verses, which is clearly cautioning AGAINST unnecessary public rebukes of elders and the elderly, even in the first verse you brought up:
1 Timothy 5:1 – Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father.
It is in this context that we arrive at verses 19 and 20, where Timothy is against cautioned NOT to accuse an elder except with 2 or 3 witnesses, and if he has sinned, then rebuke him publicly.
I repeat, I am not asserting that only elders can be rebuked publicly–only that the verses you are citing are NOT giving instruction to church leaders to rebuke with abandon.
Just wanted to highlight a couple of your comments:
You said: "I have been rebuked for things that I haven't done. So what? People make mistakes. I will, and probably have falsely accused someone of something too."
I'm not saying not to forgive someone who makes a mistake and falsely accuses you. I'm saying to those who make a practice of presumptuous false accusations, as you have toward me, stop doing it. It's a sin. I don't hold grudges against those who do it, I'm just exhorting them to stop it. Stop falsely accusing people and assuming evil motives. That is the essence of gossip, evil surmising and slander.
You said: "Pride is a crown Kevin. Everyone can see why you need the rebuke, but because it's on top of your head, you can't see it."
I've taken every caution I can against my own pride on this blog. I've never sought out conflict with anyone, and have avoided using names whenever possible. I can stand before God and say that I'm doing this for pure reasons–love for you and for those whose theology has been negatively affected by Stanton's unbiblical teachings. You can think what you want. I know who I am, and my God knows who I am.
Should also mention for clarity once in 2015 and the other in 2016.